What is ‘cis privilege’?

[MissSusanSays]

I’ve seen quite a few of the posters wo come on to make the pro-self id argument rage about ‘cis privilege’

Could one of them actually explain what it is? Because I struggle to see how women, who are oppressed by their sex and forced into gender norms, abused, paid less, over looked for promotions, given shoddy maternity care, suffer post natal depression in silence, suffer miscarriages, fight through the shame and difficulty on infertility, endometriosis, breast cancer, rape, sexual assault, menopause, hysterectomy, groping, belittling etc are privileged.

If someone who believes in ‘cis privilege’ can point out to me what privileged women have then I’d really, really like to know.

Or is it just another way to shame women into not talking about the tragic and terrifying things that happen to them because of the way their bodies function?

The privilege which dare not speak its name on Mumsnet dot com is the simple privilege of never feeling any doubt about your gender identity. Never being bullied, judged or traduced for being trans.

What prejudices do trans people face?

Is it that they are not the biological sex they want to be? Because, realistically, that can't happen.

Never being bullied, judged or traduced for being trans.

Because being bullied for being a woman for not conforming to every f*ing 'woman' stereotype on the planet is so much more fun.

Never being bullied, judged or traduced for being trans.

They should be delighted at having all those things done to them, after all women have it from the time they’re old enough to walk and talk. I thought trans identifying men wanted to be treated just like women?

the simple privilege of never feeling any doubt about your gender identity

not so different than the privilege of not falling for a bullshit ideology then, eh?

Bullied, judged or traduced.

Most trans people are viewed with the sympathy they deserve.

Lot's of children are bullied in schools.

Lots of people are judged by their looks.

Lots of people are traduced by their actions.

Presumably trans women have trans privilege too, e.g. never having to fear an unwanted pregancy of their own,

r/cisprivilegeisalie

also never being discriminated against in your job for being/being likely to be pregnant

What hardships do trans people suffer though?

Off the top of my head violent assaults, being spat at, mocked in the street, overlooked at job interviews, having their gender dysphoria dismissed as a mental illness, difficulty finding a partner willing to accept them, rejection from family members, painful surgery, lifelong medication.

Never being bullied, judged or traduced for being trans.

"Gender identity" and biological sex are not the same thing.

What about being bullied, judged or traduced for being female?

What about being systematically aborted for being female?

What about being systematically beaten, assaulted, raped and murdered for being female?

What about being systematically underpaid and discriminated against in the workplace for being female?

Using Margaret Atwood's dystopian vision of Gilead as an example, a self-identified gender fluid person - such as 'Pips' Bunce - would have the option of reclaiming their biological male sex to avoid state attention. As a biological female I wouldn't have that luxury. But yes, please do tell me more about the inherent privilege that my SEX affords me

I'm not sure it can be disregarded. I think that a man does have it easier than a trans woman and a woman has it a bit easier than a trans man. I wouldn't swap places with a trans man.

The misunderstanding is that people are saying there are two groups - privileged and non privileged - and only one group should be more sensitive to the other. In fact, we are a composite of different life experiences. So a TW has the privilege of growing up male, being bigger and stronger etc. combined with unease about themselves that other men don't have. I don't think that the trans status automatically cancels out all the areas you are privileged in though, and we shouldn't be encouraging people to think that way, we should encourage people to realise there are areas they are fortunate in.

I've been very lucky with my mental health, I would listen to someone with MH problems if they tried to explain the impact it had on their lives, even if they used a term like "MH privilege." I've been less lucky with my physical health, and would hope people consider it when necessary. I wouldn't say "able bodied privilege," but the concept is the same.

Basically, I get the concept, don't mind it, think it is horribly mis used and shouldn't win you any prizes, but shouting it down will just make someone think they have the moral high ground.

It is the very definition of 'privilege' to grow up male and enjoy the benefits that affords you, and then claim the oppressed status of women safe in the knowledge that the vast majority of their struggles will never apply to you.

I have every sympathy with someone who has genuine gender dysphoria. I don't with someone who views womanhood as a prize to be won at the expense of biological women.

Gender dysphoria “dismissed” as a mental illness? Are you trying to say it isn’t one? That having a delusion of being in the “wrong body” is somehow perfectly sane, despite it conflicting with physical reality? I struggle to see your logic on that.

Basically, I get the concept, don't mind it, think it is horribly mis used and shouldn't win you any prizes, but shouting it down will just make someone think they have the moral high ground.

You know, I do not buy the implicit assertion of cis-privilege that 'Pips' Bunce has it harder than any woman of his abilities working in his industry and with the same educational background. I am pretty sure, we're looking at male privilege when we look at 'Pip'.

Basically, I get the concept, don't mind it, think it is horribly mis used and shouldn't win you any prizes, but shouting it down will just make someone think they have the moral high ground. The problem is that 'cis' is no longer shorthand for people who don't have gender dysphoria. We are being asked to accept that ciswomen are a subgroup in a broader category called women, which also includes people like Karen White and Alex Drummond.

Babdoc it used to be considered a mental illness (as was homosexuality) but not any longer:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

I didn't say Pips bounce had it easier than women. I was very clear that he benefited from male privilege, but that it might have disadvantaged him, compared to other men, if he had genuine body issues when they didn't (I don't think cross dressers can claim the same problems as dysphoric people but that's a different thread). I have never said that cis trumps male, or whatever else you are implying.

Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

I wonder where this medical condition resides.

I think that a man does have it easier than a trans woman

Yes; if a transwoman wants to talk about 'cis privilege', it should be in relation to men.

I clearly compared men to TW in terms of advantage and women to TM - I made no comparison between TW and women.

In fact, I think the degrees of advantage are subjective if you must compare different types of privilege (which I didn't do). That it's probably easier to be a woman than a TW in the American Deep South and easier to be a TW than a woman in Iran. The effect will also vary at an individual level, that is why I didn't compare male to cis, I only compared male+cis to male-cis.

I have never said that cis trumps male, or whatever else you are implying.

I am implying that the term 'cis-privilege' is fraudulent, because it encompasses all types of transpeople as the 'less advantaged', including cross-dressers who have made careers women (or black men) can only dream of and live lives as privileged as that of other white heterosexual males (possibly with a wife who raises their kids and cleans up after them).
A precise term would be 'nondysphoria privilege' but certainly not cis-priviledge.

It may well be that trans women are disadvantaged compared to other men, but when they talk of cis privilege the implication is that trans women are doubly disadvantaged (by being trans and by being a woman) or triply (because most are trans lesbian).

Transwomen always talk about cis-privilege in relation to women, though.

or triply (because most are trans lesbian)

Make it quadruply for late transitioners because they do not have 'passing privilege'.

And so you end up with white males, who have built a career and have children, all on the back of a woman who did all the unpaid work so they could do that, being the most oppressed demographic of all.