TG day of remembrance

[WomanAndProud]

When did 20 November become the transgender Day Of Remembrance?

Is there an International Women's Day of Remembrance? We bloody well need to get onto it given the numbers of us who are actually killed every single day. And given that the majority of women who are murdered are killed by men, that's anti-women (adult human female, to be clear - and that's not exclusionary, trans women don't want to be included anyway, they've made their own day they can't now complain about not being in ours).

And I do hope that they'll be remembering the trans people killed by other trans people. Because there are a fair few of them too.

We are specifically talking about murders, as that’s what the day of rememberance is for.

You’re not being ‘personally attacked’ for disagreeing. Nobody is ‘attacking’ you. I think your behaviour here and inability to follow logic and reasoning, is ridiculous. You have made your feelings known about us in this thread also, and in many other threads.

That's called having a different opinion. Then you (collective you) wonder why you're left with an echo chamber. People can't do with the braying pack mentality.
Have I called you ridiculous? No.

No you’ve called our opinions, ‘vile’ and agreed with another commentor telling us we should be ashamed.

Don't move the goalposts. The Trans Day of Remembrance is for victims of transphobic murder. Not for people who've 'been attacked'. Go look it up if you don't believe me.

This was posted yesterday and yet we are still debating what the day is for ffs

People can't do with the braying pack mentality.

Funny because you’re all still here! And ‘pack mentality’, really? Sorry you find debate so distressing. It must be hard to have your opinions challenged when you’re used to the ‘no questions’ type environment

No you’ve called our opinions, ‘vile’

Then that's not a personal attack if I have said a differing COLLECTIVE viewpoint is vile, is it?
I'm not getting personal.

You seem to be saying that any transpeople being hurt and attacked is nothing to do with being trans. Denying it happens. "Well, it would have happened anyway. and not because they're trans."
What, nobody, anywhere, has a problem with transpeople and they're not subject to name calling, being hit etc?

That is NOT what I am saying. You are missing exactly the point which I am trying to make - which is about nuance and context!

I am not "denying it happens". Where have I done that? And you have put a quote in about it happening anyway regardless of them being trans when I have said nothing of the sort.

What I am trying to illustrate here is that you don't know that the crime was committed specifically because a person was - or is - trans. But that if a victim of crime was also engaged in a known high risk occupation such as sex work, then leaving that detail out and only focusing on their gender identity, is potentially misleading. Again, context is key.

It must be hard to have your opinions challenged when you’re used to the ‘no questions’ type environment

I'm not used to any no questions environment , just have a differing one to you and the majority! Unless you're implying I'm some kind of activist, I seriously am not.I'm only on MN and no-where else discussing this online or in RL.
As for "you're still here" - yes, I am, but I can completely see why others give up and just leave you all to it.

Yes you are. You are saying all those commenting have made vile comments. That’s personally directed at a handful of women here. If there were 10 people making identical comments to you, I would say ‘you are all ridiculous’ and mean it personally to each one. So no, you don’t get a pass to make comments like that just because it’s directed at more than one person.

As for "you're still here" - yes, I am, but I can completely see why others give up and just leave you all to it

Because of our ‘pack mentality’? Because you think we are driven by emotions instead of reason and logic? Us silly old middle aged women 🙄 you couldn’t be more of a misogynist if you tried.

It's the expecting all women to think the same. Lump me in with a silly old middled aged women bracket as well then.

There are varying viewpoints in this thread and across the whole board. The difference here is that debate is robust and there is an expectation that critical thinking and justification (sources) will be used as a foundation for an argument.

If those are missing then there is a fairly universal 'move on' approach applied, as many feminists on here - myself included - are tired of having to debate 'feelings' over validated and empirical facts.

Braying pack mentality!

I suppose that's an inclusive policy statement...

I'm adding vile to the list of insults women get for not cooing sensitively at every opportunity.

Thanks

Nobody expects ‘all women to think the same’. For goodness sake. We are engaging our brains are not just accepting every damn thing that comes along. For that you called our comments, vile. The only thing expected here, is critical thinking.

I can’t believe this happened so many years ago, I wasn’t that much older.

I know this isnt right place but being as it’s chat about remembrance, murders and acts around that I am.

I’m just going to say name Stephen Lawrence.

www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-build-a-statue-for-stephen-lawrence-in-trafalgar-square/w?source_location=psf_petitions

As for whether Naomi Hersi was murdered for “being trans” - well her murderer knew she was trans (as reported in the Guardian article following the court case: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/25/man-murdered-naomi-hersi-three-day-sex-and-drugs-old-bailey-told)

To say people can’t remember her because she wasn’t “murdered for being trans” is disingenuous. In the same way that women who are murdered are not necessarily murdered for “being women”, but because they were killed either intentionally or unintentionally by someone who felt rage / had such disregard for their life that they killed them. That they were female was just one of many reasons why they were murdered. Similarly for trans murders.

The loss of life, especially violently, is tragic. It can never be attributed to any one factor, but that shouldn’t stop people from being able to say that that factor plays an important part. Women are murdered due to misogyny playing a part. Trans people are murdered due to transphobia playing a part. Only by identifying that can we address the issue and work towards stopping it from happening again.

Some people are very disingenuous.

A transgender woman was brutally murdered in the UK in March this year (2018). That it had very limited coverage in the national press, may have meant that people aren’t aware of it?

Firstly the killer of Naomi Hersi has denied murder, so it's not really appropriate to say that at this point, as it could be prejudicing a trial.

Secondly the killing of Naomi Hersi got far more coverage than a natal women's killing would have got, not 'very little' at all, as you bizarrely put it.

For example, this article: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/26/trans-women-single-sex-spaces-cruel-impossible argues that the killing of Naomi Hersi is why transwomen need more rights.

In the BBC the killing has been covered in four articles:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43450162
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43502985
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45625789
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45803668

There will be more published when a verdict is reached. And this is certainly as much, or more, coverage as the murder of a natal female would receive any similar circumstances.

"To say people can’t remember her because she wasn’t “murdered for being trans” is disingenuous"

How about you stop prejudicing a trial to make a point on the internet.

Yes, let's leave Naomi Hersi out of this, at least until the trial is over? Otherwise MN will have to pull the thread

To say people can’t remember her because she wasn’t “murdered for being trans” is disingenuous

That hasn’t been said and you probably should not keep raising that case. Just stop it.

Continuing with Brazil as an example -

In 2016 258 transpeople were murdered (source; Trans Murder Watch via FPFW), making Brazil the most dangerous place for transpeople.

However this is within the context of Brazil's overall crime-rate. In 2017 4539 women were murdered. Between 2011 - 2015 there were 14 journalists murdered. In 2017 there were 105 police officers killed in Rio alone. Ironically the police force itself is a threat to the population; in 2017 there were an average of 14 deaths a day at the hands of law enforcement (sources; The Independent and ISSAT).

ResistanceIsNecessary

Yup, context is everything

Posted too soon -

Violence against transpeople in Brazil is an issue. Common figures quoted that up to 90% of transpeople engage in street sex work (I couldn't find a definitive source for this but have seen several articles quoting similar numbers to each other), which is inherrently dangerous. There may well be an element of violence caused specifically because of the individual's gender identity. However the context required is that Brazil overall is a dangerous place for everyone living there as the per capita murder rate is significantly higher than neighbouring countries, meaning that you are at a higher risk of being murdered simply by being in Brazil.

I’m not sure how mentioning Naomi Hersi’s name and linking to an article published following the trial (so presumably not in contempt) is going to prejudice the case?

The discussion was about TDOR and was repeatedly claimed that no trans women had been murdered in the UK this year. This article is proof that those statements are false.

It was then stated that she wasn’t murdered because she was trans, so therefore shouldn’t be counted. I responded that women are not murdered because they are female, but nobody has responded to me about that?

Instead the conversation has turned to how many column inches trans people’s deaths have vs women’s deaths - this is grotesque! Women are killed, sometimes it makes the news, oftentimes it doesn’t. Equally, trans people are killed, sometimes it makes the news, oftentimes it doesn’t. All deaths are equally tragic.