TG day of remembrance

[WomanAndProud]

When did 20 November become the transgender Day Of Remembrance?

Is there an International Women's Day of Remembrance? We bloody well need to get onto it given the numbers of us who are actually killed every single day. And given that the majority of women who are murdered are killed by men, that's anti-women (adult human female, to be clear - and that's not exclusionary, trans women don't want to be included anyway, they've made their own day they can't now complain about not being in ours).

And I do hope that they'll be remembering the trans people killed by other trans people. Because there are a fair few of them too.

*VerbeenaBeeks

@EarlyWalker it's ridiculous,isn't' it? The name calling, the accusations, if you dare to think differently*

🙄 pot... kettle... we are mighty sick of your endless insults and accusations too

IKeepFlouncing - I haven't called you any name. Unlike what you do to me. I'm not a TRA

Verbeena, are you saying calling you a ‘trans rights activist’ is an insult? Calling you a ‘nane’? So you’re not a trans rights activist? That’s a shameful thing to be? What about this description offends you exactly? It’s how you’re behaving

You've got more patience than I do engaging with them pennydrew!

*Bespin

hi mumsnet I am sure some of you feel thst you have valid reasons for thinking that we don't need a day of remembrance.*

Again, this day is specifically framed as a day to remember homicide victims. It’s not just simply a day of rememberance for anyone trans who has died. The issues with framing it the way it has been, have been discussed at length. If you want to respond you should respond to what we are actually saying.

None of you have said anything about Munroe and their comments highlighted here. Anything to say?

NopeNi

You've got more patience than I do engaging with them pennydrew!

Not always!

I can't believe that some people on here can't see the difference between a discussion about a 'transgender day of remembrance' (which in itself most people don't seem to have a problem with) and a discussion about how other people's tragedies are co-opted by certain TRAs to further their agenda.

Verbeena, Earlywalker, do you think its right that the likes of Munroe Bergdorf go around telling everyone that statistically they only have 4 years to live?

"As an old lesbian who has worked the gay switchboard for many years , anyone objecting to this day perhaps would like to contact William Lounds mother ,to explain why they think her son shouldn't be remembered ?

as a mother myself I find it very strange that mothers or women are objecting to mothers who have lost their children to murder

Williams Murder didn't receive the press attention nationally and hjs Transman status wasn't reported at the time , he was just a 30 year old student at University
"

Where did you get THAT from?

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsliverpool/inquest-hears-of-missed-opportunities-which-could-have-prevented-tick-tock-murder/ar-AAuP1qp

"Mr Lound was gay and would occasionally wear women’s clothing "

He was a gay man murdered by a paranoid schizophrenic. It is not becoming to trans the dead.

This is William Lound as a child with his sister Virginia, who committed suicide following the murder. He was not a transman.

QuietContraryMary

Thank you. It just never ends does it? The disgusting lengths they’ll go to.

I can't believe that some people on here can't see the difference between a discussion about a 'transgender day of remembrance' (which in itself most people don't seem to have a problem with) and a discussion about how other people's tragedies are co-opted by certain TRAs to further their agenda.

Quite.

No-one objects to remembering the victims of male violence. Least of all feminists.

But the trans ideology is characterised by manipulation and hoodwinkery. It's certainly not known for it's empathy or activism to prevent male violence.

And I personally don't understand how you can devote a day to the deaths of people, whilst vehemently supporting the system that allows it.

Prostitution is almost exclusively by men, for men, and profits only men. By using women. And now transwomen. And yet wanting to abolish that system is met with howls of outrage by men identifying as women. Who then go on to vociferouslyy lament its effects whilst simultaneously vilifying feminists who disagree with it!

And then Bergdorf adds insult to injury by appropriating the stats for themself to manipulate people into believing they are a victim.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

None of which has anything to do with those who genuinely want to remember the victims of male violence without manipulating it for their own personal gain.

Verbeena, Earlywalker, do you think its right that the likes of Munroe Bergdorf go around telling everyone that statistically they only have 4 years to live?

I don’t know enough about her tbh, enough to comment on what she says. By saying you have 4 years to live sounds like she’s scared to me. Or suffering with mental health issues. My cousin was schitzophrinic and would often say similar.

I don’t think one persons comments stand for a whole community. There was a group of anti-suffragettes led by woman. Not everyone’s intentions are where they should be for the good of their ‘people’.

I think that the notion that a day of rememberance being solely to ‘score points’ is quite niave and actually comes from a place of privilige in some ways.

For example, a white person cannot claim that a black day of rememberance is to ‘score points’ they cannot say ‘oh they weren’t killed for being black, they were a bad person or a sex worker or killed in another country or this or that so your day is just to make us feel sorry for you’

I don’t know enough about her tbh, enough to comment on what she says. By saying you have 4 years to live sounds like she’s scared to me. Or suffering with mental health issues.

Who knows. But the point is Munroe is manipulating the stats. Munroe has made what Munroe is saying quite clear and weaponised it against women. And plenty of others say it or believe it.

'Manipulating the Stats' is chapters one through five of the transactivist playbook. It's constant and relentless.

The next chapter is how can we minimise male violence against women but not transwomen.

It comes as a surprise to absolutely nobody that transactivists are using both those tactics to gain sympathy/benefit/victim status.

If you don't like people being suspicious, take it up with those who go out of their way to manipulate, rather than the women who point it out.

The next chapter is how can we minimise male violence against women but not transwomen.

Oh yes.

And I personally don't understand how you can devote a day to the deaths of people, whilst vehemently supporting the system that allows it.

^^This.

Having come back to the thread this morning, I am pretty bewildered by some of the posts, which seem to be completely ignoring the points we are trying to raise and insisting that a discussion about the motivations of some people behind the TDoR, equates to denying Mothers a chance to mourn their dead children I see critical thinking is alive and well.

I also see that those accusing us of being bigots have not actually addressed two of the key points which I have repeatedly made earlier in the thread - about Munroe Bergdorf's misuse of statistics and about the TRA refusal to promote the Nordic model.

I don’t know enough about her tbh, enough to comment on what she says. By saying you have 4 years to live sounds like she’s scared to me. Or suffering with mental health issues

Munroe is a middle-class, well educated, British transwoman, with a significant social media presence, a modelling career (including L'Oreal campaigns) and high profile TRA campaigner (at one point advising the Labour party).

Specifically in relation to the tweet, which stated that statistically Munroe only had 4 years left to live, what exactly does Munroe have to be 'scared' of? We've already explained where the statistics actually come from - do you think that Munroe has any cause to be 'scared' when they aren't a Brazilian trans sex worker? FYI according to the report completed by the Independent, the majority of trans sex workers end up on the streets as the majority of brothels (including the legal 'zonas') don't allow trans sex workers. Street sex work is inherently more dangerous than working in a legal brothel.

So I will ask again, why do you think Munroe is 'scared', remembering of course that they applied the statistic to themselves? Or could it be that Munroe saw an opportunity to complete some activism on behalf of trans-rights, and rather disingenuously co-opted statistics that don't apply to them and used the numbers to suggest that they personally were in danger?

For someone who I seem to recall say they worked in the legal field, foxyliz seems unable to carry out basic due diligence. And makes things up 

Williams Murder didn't receive the press attention nationally and hjs Transman status wasn't reported at the time , he was just a 30 year old student at University

There was an entire episode of a BBC detectives series about the Lound murder and it was widely reported. What are you talking about?

Lound did not identify as transgender. He identified as a gay man who liked to cross dress.

I watched the filmed confession by Lee Arnold. An absolutely horrific murder - motivated by mental illness and homophobia - and Lound's mother made a courageous and wonderful speech after sentencing, saying that she did not blame Arnold but rather the disastrous mental health services in this country.

So was he a "trans man" because he actually was a man who fell under the Stonewall umbrella?

I suspect foxyliz looked at one dodgy source where William's murder has been held up as an example of transphobic murder, looked at a photo of William and concluded he must have been a transman. Amiright?

I don’t know enough about her tbh, enough to comment on what she says. By saying you have 4 years to live sounds like she’s scared to me. Or suffering with mental health issues. My cousin was schitzophrinic and would often say similar.

This is the tweet.

Munroe using someone else's plight as a reason why Munroe should be allowed access to female spaces. It's disgusting (and I don't use that word lightly!)

And Munroe certainly isn't the only one to use those statistics in that way.

Having come back to the thread this morning, I am pretty bewildered by some of the posts, which seem to be completely ignoring the points we are trying to raise and insisting that a discussion about the motivations of some people behind the TDoR, equates to denying Mothers a chance to mourn their dead children confused I see critical thinking is alive and well.

Yes, it's like people are deliberately ignoring what we are trying to say.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with a transgender day of remembrance. People can remember who and what they want to and should be allowed to do so.

I do take issue with a TDoR turning into something language like 'trans people are being exterminated', that there is a 'genocide' against trans people, that trans people are x times more likely to be murdered than 'cis' people. Because its not true and some people use it as a weapon to try and coerce others into doing what they want.

Two very different things.

So was he a "trans man" because he actually was a man who fell under the Stonewall umbrella?

Freudian slip?!

Lound had tried to make friends with a group of homeless people on several occasions. This had made a few of them suspicious and paranoid about him and Arnold's psychosis exacerbated, making him decide to murder Lound - which he did after going back to Lound's university rooms.

The police didn't know who'd done it. Arnold walked into a police station to confess, saying that now he'd done it once he knew he'd do it again and asking to be locked up for life.

It was truly harrowing viewing.

Lound did not identify as transgender. He identified as a gay man who liked to cross dress.

It's another example of gays and lesbians being swept under the 'gender spectrum' banner. Neatly overlooking the fact that sexual preference and gender are nothing to do with each other. As always when I consider this fact, I remain baffled about why the T was ever associated with the LGB because the aims and needs of the groups were and are, fundamentally different.

Other examples:

• The recent social media claims that the Stonewall riots originated through the activism of a transperson. In fact Stormé DeLarverie was a lesbian who not only protested for lesbian rights but also spent a number of years actively working as a bouncer and patrolling the streets in New York to be a protective presence for other lesbians. She often wore men's clothing having been part of a drag act. The act of her being 'butch' has led to her identify being co-opted as trans, when she wasn't.

• The 'blue plaque row' over Anne Lister, who was described as "gender non-conforming" when in fact she was a lesbian. Refusing to conform to gender stereotypes has nothing to do with sexuality and sexual orientation.