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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

406 replies

YuhBasic · 16/10/2018 23:01

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/10/2018 10:07

Wouldnt you get sick leave anyway for any surgery?

or is it considered cosmetic

wingwarbler · 17/10/2018 10:20

I guess the right the transgenderists want that they feel they don't have is the right to self id, but sadly for them that impinges on women's rights. It's also a right that non trans people do not have: I can't self identify into the legal status of something I am not.

Exactly IfNotNow. They want the right to be something they factually are not. It is a fundamental flaw both with the legal argument and the emotional one.

Deceit is a terrible basis to start any relationship. Humans are hard-wired to detect it and dislike it and for good reason. And especially if about biological sex. Society needs trust, goodwill, openness and reciprocity to work well, something the TRA and genderist ideology actively breaks down.

FesteringCarbuncle · 17/10/2018 10:26

I can't see how being out as trans is any more dangerous than being out as a gay man
There is no need to hide any more
Why can't being trans be celebrated. If there were acceptance that being a trans woman is not the same as being a woman we would not be in this situation.
It is a demand that others pander to a delusion that is wrong. Fight for a third space if there is a fear of male spaces

SillySallySingsSongs · 17/10/2018 10:29

Please don't let them use disabled, if they are able bodied, disabled access to things like parking spaces and disabled toilets are already abused by able bodied people. The disabled need to have access to these things protected.

Completely agree. Yet again those with disabilities are being shoved out the way.

Charliethefeminist · 17/10/2018 10:33

Don't know rufus, but it has creepy associations with being reborn

Ekphrasis · 17/10/2018 10:34

I can't see how being out as trans is any more dangerous than being out as a gay man
There is no need to hide any more
Why can't being trans be celebrated.

Pretty much why Debbie Hayton said the GRA should be repealed.

citiesofbismuth · 17/10/2018 10:37

Hang on, I've just realised. The trans people appear to be objecting to being treated like second class citizens?

Welcome to our world!

Seriously? They seem to think women have it all. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Hamster00 · 17/10/2018 10:37

As I've posted before on a few threads...

As a transsexual person who is vehemently opposed to self-ID and stuck in the middle of this debate, I can honestly (off the top of my head) say that there are no rights that we don't have that aren't covered by other pieces of legislation.

This is purely a push for men with "gender feelz" to gain access to protected women's spaces because they "feel" like women - whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

As someone with a very strong transmedicalist viewpoint, those people (such as myself) with diagnosed gender dysphoria, and are subsequently going down a medical pathway, already have all our needs covered. If I'm perfectly honest, some of those needs have been at the expense of women - but that's another discussion altogether.

Most of these men don't have true dysphoria - it's AGP plain and simple. They won't go down a medical pathway (apart from to possibly obtain hormones so they can get their "laydee boobs" to further their delusion). They will not go for gender reassignment, because they love their "laydee dick" too much. To be honest, in their current state I doubt half of them would even get through the GRA process anyway.

Some of the threads in the last few days, written more eloquently than I can, have suggested that the GRA should be repealed altogether - and I am starting to agree (especially with the provision for civil partnerships, same sex marriage etc). Everything else is just basically to change a sex marker on a birth certificate... why? It's a lie and you can't erase your history.

To date, I have not seen ONE compelling argument the TRAs (or their charity lapdogs) have put forward to convince me that self-ID is either furthering trans rights or protecting trans rights.

It may be a sweeping generalisation but all transsexual people want to do is just get on with our boring mundane lives with a bit of privacy. We don't want to infringe on anyone elses rights. Our medical treatment eases our dysphoria to the point where we can live with better mental health and function as close to normally as possible. That's it..... nothing more.....

As others have said, yes these threads can become an echo chamber for a certain viewpoint - but those views are important and need to be spread to protect those whose lives are about to become a whole lot worse if this nonsense goes ahead.

The *trans community does not need any more rights that aren't governed by existing legislation. The transsexual community does not need any more rights that aren't governed by existing legislation.

The ONLY people who need more rights are the women and children who need protecting from these feckin' nutjobs, fetishists and sex pests with their "feelz".

Charliethefeminist · 17/10/2018 10:39

That's quite a remarkable post hamster

DadJoke · 17/10/2018 10:45

They want the same rights they have in Portugal, Denmark, Malta, Sweden, Ireland and Norway; the right to for their gender to be recognised in law.

Ekphrasis · 17/10/2018 10:47

Wow hamster. I hadn't seen you post before. You're coming from the same angle that Debbie was yesterday on women's hour.

Ekphrasis · 17/10/2018 10:48

their gender to be recognised in law.

Back to this. What is gender? What is 'their gender?'

Transsexual is a protected characteristic.

Dragon3 · 17/10/2018 10:49

DadJoke, I don't think they do. In Ireland, for example, there are far stronger sex-based exemptions (e.g. prisons segregate by sex). That is not being proposed here.

All of those countries have profoundly different existing legal frameworks and cultural attitudes to female rights.

Turph · 17/10/2018 10:50

PenguinSaidEverything Hi, I'm Turph. I'm a butch lesbian.
As someone with a number of trans friends and colleagues (both trans men and trans women) I’ve well and truly had my eyes open to some of the shit some trans people put up with. Certainly more than I have as a middle-class white woman with a family around me. I’ve spoken to a trans man who was physically assaulted by a stranger in a pub (this particular man ‘passes’ 100% so i think the stranger was shocked and disgusted to find out his trans past - this was just someone he was chatting to not flirting with or anything).
Hi, I've been beaten up by men for being a butch lesbian.
I’ve spoken to a young trans woman who struggles with relationships and ends up with creepy older men who fetishise her and don’t want to introduce her to their friends. Hi, I've had relationships with straight women who don't want to introduce me to their friends, and I've had relationships with manipulative older people, it's an issue amongst homosexual people the same as anyone else.

I’ve spoken to a trans woman who can’t get a job because (despite being genuinely beautiful) doesn’t quite ‘pass’ so she always does well in tests, telephone interviews etc but the minute people meet her she can tell they’re shocked and the interviews never go anywhere. In fact a number of trans people I know are out of work during their transition (which takes bloody years) until they’re able to ‘pass’.
Yep, I can relate to that, I've had the same thing happen to me, horrified looks as I walk into an interview. It's a common theme for butch lesbians to struggle.in finding work.

I know countless people who were bullied as children, whose own parents threw them out of home or friends stopped seeing them when they announced that they were trans.
Check, check, check. This is pretty common for gay people.

Sorry to derail, but I couldn't just read past your post. Everything that you perceive as anti-trans discrimination is depressingly bog-standard homophobia too. It's grim to go through but it doesn't make trans people special. In recent years we've seen gay men beaten to death by youths, a gay serial killer the police couldn't be bothered to investigate, and an increase in homophobic assaults. This isn't just a trans thing. The narrative is that gay people are fine now and we've got to help out the other alphabet soup letters and it just doesn't wash. T is not like L or G or B.

Dragon3 · 17/10/2018 10:51

Good post, hamster. Please tell Stonewall this. And your MP! And complete the consultation if you haven't already done so Smile

Barracker · 17/10/2018 10:52

They haven't yet won the right to STOP 33 million females from being recognised as a legal and biological group.

I think that's the right they want.

They're not actually fighting for an extra right for themselves.
They're opposed to the right that biological females have to be recognised as a sex.

They're fighting to dismantle one of our rights.

Turph · 17/10/2018 11:00

Letting anyone into the ladies changing room isn't going to improve trans relations. Saying getting a pronoun wrong is a hate crime isn't going to encourage people to hire trans people. Shouting down women who speak concerns isn't going to encourage them to welcome trans people into their spaces. And I'm sorry that trans women find it hard to find a partner that isn't just fetishising them, but there is not much anyone can do about that. It's not society's fault for being hetronormative or whatever the new buzzword is, most people are only attracted to a conventional human body with traditional anatomy. You can't force people to fancy ladies with male anatomy and visa versa - and self id most definitely won't make a difference to that.
This is spot on.

DadJoke · 17/10/2018 11:34

Dragon said "DadJoke, I don't think they do. In Ireland, for example, there are far stronger sex-based exemptions (e.g. prisons segregate by sex). That is not being proposed here."

I didn't know about the Irish prison situation - thank you - though the LGBT lobby in Ireland is pushing for change there, too.

My view is that sex and gender are different things, and they get conflated, which is why we have the whole "TWAW" and "TWANW" debate - we are talk about the difference between a sex-based and a gender-identity-based definition of woman. GC feminists deny that gender indentity is an objective category, and TRAs deny sex is an objective category.

Sexual dimorphism in human beings is very real, and I think it's ill-advised for trans rights activists to make philosophical arguments based on sex differences not being definite just because of very rare edge cases. Everyone knows sex is a very strong category philosophically, because people very rarely disagree over assignment to a sex group; thre are strong and very reliable objective tests to determine the group, the group you are in has strong direct (medical and reproductive) and indirect effects (cultural expectations) on peoples' lives, and there are a tiny number of people who don't fit in a group. There is a greater proportion of people with missing limbs than people who are not easily categorised by sex.

Once you accept that sex and gender are different, it's easier to put forward a nuanced argument for sex-based safe spaces. In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces, but that "almost" is incredibly important.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 17/10/2018 11:52

In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces

Why??

Hamster00 · 17/10/2018 11:57

In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces

As a transsexual person, what female spaces do I "NEED" access to? Which ones are ESSENTIAL for my day to day existence?

Elephantinacravat · 17/10/2018 11:59

In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces, but that "almost" is incredibly important.

Can you define 'transwoman' in this context please?

BigotedWoman · 17/10/2018 12:00

No specific protection against non binary discrimination.

This is going to sound goady but I genuinely don't know what non-binary discrimination would entail?

StrangeLookingParasite · 17/10/2018 12:00

In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces

You know what? That isn't your decision to make.

LangCleg · 17/10/2018 12:02

I'm starting to really like you, Hamster! Good, robust posts you make hereabouts.

SlowlyShrinking · 17/10/2018 12:05

DadJoke I’m assuming you’re a man? If so, why can’t you and your fellow men be more welcoming to gender non-conforming males, instead of trying to force them into female spaces?

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