So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

Dinosauratemydaffodils I am so sorry to hear this happened to you. What a terrible piece of shit that man was. Thank you for sharing this.

So DadJoke, why would you allow transwomen access to female spaces? Why shouldn't men be allowed access too?

No one is clear, are they?
Whole thing is ridiculous.

Dinosaurs

The right to not constantly have their rights and very existence questioned in thread after thread after thread by bored internet users with no actual stake in the answer?

All women and girls have a massive stake in the answer.

And anyway, no one is questioning the existence of trans women and men.
What I feel is that trans men and women should be free to live their lives however they feel comfortable free from abuse and discrimination.
But their right to do that does not trump the right of women and girls to be safe.

All the trans people I know have always been lovely people. They have always wanted to just get on with their lives without staring, pointing and much worse. I don't question their existence.

The question is other than the right to live their lives free from abuse and discrimination, which is all anyone wants really, what rights are we talking about? No one seems to want to say.

I've just asked this very question on twitter, on the UKLabour thread alluded to in another post on here.

A bloke (I think) said current trans rights weren't "good enough" so I asked him which ones weren't, and what extra rights they needed bearing in mind that gender reassignment is a protected quality under the EA.

Had quite a few likes but nobody has actually answered yet. Will let you know if they do.

MerryMouse I would allow transwoman access to gender-appropriate bathrooms, and affirmative action programs which are for the benefit of all women. Everything else needs discussion.

They want the right to be treated as a member of a particular sex class regardless of reality.

The right to be treated differently because of their declared sex.

I want the right not to be treated differently because of my sex.

It's totally incompatible. Treating people differently because of their sex is SEXIST. They want sexism legally enshrined.

Non-binary specific anti-discrimination measures, though - there's something in that. NB is discriminated against for defying sex stereotypes. Females and makes are discriminated against for defying sex stereotypes. Discrimination on the grounds of adherence to or rejection of stereotypes should be outlawed and dealt with very harshly.

Making it specifically for NB rather than everyone is bollocks though. It's letting a few special snowflakes out of the cage of enforced stereotype conformation while offering no protection for the rest of us.

I would allow transwoman access to gender-appropriate bathrooms.

As has already been established there is very little to stop anybody using any toilet now.

affirmative action programs which are for the benefit of all women.

Why? Affirmative action programmes are already very contentious. What reasoning would justify an affirmative action programme that includes women and trans women but excludes men?

And what is a gender appropriate bathroom anyway?

Why? Affirmative action programmes are already very contentious. What reasoning would justify an affirmative action programme that includes women and trans women but excludes men?

It's OK to discriminate under English law for strict purposes, and if you are discriminating to find women, then that should include transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

If you are against affimative action altogether, then I suspect that's a topic for another thread.

Dinosaurs I am so moved and sorry you had to go through that and have to fight on every day since, facing the truth and risk and dealing with it. You have true courage.

Only sick and harmful people would put their wish to have their lie validated above your right to feel safe in our rightful and necessary women's spaces.

The only existence and rights being questioned is WOMEN'S existence and rights as a biological class, by TRAs and AWAs. Sadly we are only too well aware of their existence.

We can see the obvious projection and reversals you know.

What we are questioning is the behaviour of many people falling under the trans ideology and trans umbrella.

Or, perhaps a woman wishes to be examined by a ‘non-male gynaecologist‘

WOMAN! The word for a ‘non-male’ is woman. I think you know bloody rightly why women want areas away from men, even those that pretend to be women. I also think you simply don’t care as much for women’s rights and safety as you do for men who pretend to be women. You’re just trying to get women to feel guilty about the ‘poor transwomen’ and make us fall back into our ‘be a good girl’ socialisation.

I don’t give permission for my boundaries to be stepped on and I don’t want to share spaces with men who still have their dicks. I have the right to say NO.

Dad but transwomen aren't women. Men can't become women. Ever.

then that should include transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

Women face discrimination because they are expected to have children, because of the consequences of actually having children and because of the expectation that they will and should conform to sexist stereotypes.

Trans women face discrimination because they are gender non conforming and arguably face the same discrimination as trans men.

There is very little link between the two. You might as well have blanket positive discrimination for anyone who faces discrimination for any reason. Why not also include people who are gay or have disabilities? Good way to seem progressive, but bad way to identify and address the causes of discrimination.

My view is that sex offenders of either gender should be separately incarcerated, and they almost always are.

Very rarely the case. There are some really knowledgeable posters on here who can tell you more.

It's OK to discriminate under English law for strict purposes, and if you are discriminating to find women, then that should include transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

Wrong. There are some who have a really shit time. I understand that and I sympathise. But how dare you say they have a worse time than women. Statistically they are less likely to be killed. Less likely to be raped. Less likely to be overlooked for promotion.

Women and girls suffer from sexism every. Singke. Day. It has been proven that we are less likely to get pain relief. We have bodies that are big taken seriously - we get dismissed more. Girls are far more likely to be aborted, to the extent that some countries will now not allow the sex to be given at ultrasound. Girls suffer from FGM. We have unequal pay and unequal positions. Women who speak less in meetings than men are seen as overbearing.

I can go on all day. Do you want me to?

PostivelyPERF I am trying to avoid using "woman" in a contest which definitively excludes transwoman because that's what the whole mumsnet GC / TRA debate devolves into every single time.

I could have said "ciswoman" to be absolutely sure what we were talking about, but many GC feminists find that offensive. I don't know where you've got the idea I think women should be forced to be examined by a person with a penis; I was giving an example at your request of where sex segregation relates to biology. I am not doing any of the things you ascribe to me at all. Rights should not be granted conditionally, because you like a particular members of a group, or because you feel sorry for people. Either transwomen are women (the good, the morally reprehensible or anywhere in between) or they are not.

I could have said "ciswoman" to be absolutely sure what we were talking about

Problem is that according to Stonewall trans includes anybody who doesn't feel they have a gender which covers most of the people on this board.

Either transwomen are women (the good, the morally reprehensible or anywhere in between) or they are not.

Yes. Now could you explain why they are women.

In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces

NO

affirmative action programs which are for the benefit of all women

That would, of course, men who 'identify' as women, meaning that women would lose out. Again.

So, no.

allow transwoman access to gender-appropriate bathrooms

Which is just another way of saying "I would let men use women's private spaces".

Fuck that.

Tranwomen are not women.

Women do not have penises.

Women are adult human females.