So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

It should not be possible to change sex on official documents such as drivers licences etc. In reality if a girl or woman altered security, that a male was in a female space such a toilet, all he has to do is show his changed drivers licence and claim that he is a woman. No one expects someone to carry their birth certificate around with them, even if it does become illegal to change one’s sex on birth certificates, there still needs to be a policy that does not allow the changing of sex on other official documents, such as driving licences. It needs to happen in order that girls and women can easily get males removed from female only spaces. Removing sex from official documents makes that harder not easier.

It is necessary to collect data on biological sex for a number of things, the pay gap, crimes, which sex is under/over represented in various occupations etc.

Males who believe/feel/claim to be females do not experience misogyny, the word refers to females, which males are not. What they experience is homophobia, many men assume they are a type of gay man, even though many are actually heterosexual men. Homophobia does come from a hatred of women, i.e. the idea that men are letting the sex of males down by not being heterosexual ‘masculine’ men, but it is not the same as being hated for being an actual woman. If they want to combat the negativity men direct at them, they need to work on making men more accepting of homosexual and non-masculine men. Not dumping these men into the category of women and expecting us to pretend they are not men anymore.

If you accept gender identity is real, then the definition of woman is straightforward - a person who knows they are a women.

This is an answer I see quite often. But its a bit, nonsense as a definition. As without as meaning of 'woman' to start with, how would one 'know' they are a woman? Makes a lot more sense to explain what I mean when we take up a totally made up word, as its a lot easier to show the absurdities when its a word noone is familiar with at all. A floompumflort.

What is a floompumflort?
Someone that is a floompumflort.
But what is a floompumflort?
Someone that knows they are a floompumflort.
So what is a feature of a floompumflort?
Being a floompumflort.

And round and round. Still with no actual answer of what a floompumflort is.

Circular definitions are not definitions.

I think gender dysphopria is very obviously a real condition. I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim otherwise. I do not believe 'gender identity' is anything more than personality and what stereotypes followed though. Same as I don't believe that an anorexic person is fat, just because they suffer dysphoria.

I'll say it again. They want the right to be recognised in law under their gender identity in a more straighforward way than with the GRA, with all that entails.

What do you mean by 'widely accepted'? They use the definition of gender identity from the Yogyakarta Principles. These were written by a bunch of self-selected lawyers and academics, and have no legal standing. They may be widely accepted amongst transactivists, but not in the rest of the world.

By "widely accepted" I mean accepted by the EHRC, many democratic governments (66 states in 2008), and the UN is heading that way, too. Basically, and I am sure this is no coincidence, states in which homosexuality and same sex marriage is legal accept the principles, states which deny gay rights oppose them. Russia, the Arab League and Trinidad and Tobago are not big fans, nor are anti-choice Catholic groups.

That's aside from the almost universal acceptance in the medical professionals in western democracies that gender identity is real.

You can say it's not real, but your suggestion it's a fringe view is not plausible. I suppose you could say all these medical professionals are also delusional, or you could accept that there is a fight going on over the definition of woman. It's interesting to see this in action - the wiki definition is "adult human female" plus transwomen and certain intersex people bolted on.

Here is another gender identity defintion from the APA.

Gender Identity: A person’s deeply felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or male; a girl, a woman, or female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics. Since gender identity is internal, a person’s gender identity is not necessarily visible to others. “Affirmed gender identity” refers to a person’s gender identity after coming out as TGNC or undergoing a social and/or medical transition process

Vixxxy If you don't think gender identity is real, then everything you've said makes perfect philosophical sense. If you do, then that definition of woman is really very straightforward

You can only experience misogyny if people think you're actually female. Very few men who identify as women pass, though many fool themselves that they do, as witness Reddit groups on the topic.

If you send a CV in with a typical women's name on it, you are less likely to get certain jobs. Similar reasoning applies to scientific papers, transwoman or otherwise. Transwomen suffer from misogyny and transphobia, but the transphobia hugely trumps the misogyyny. Non-passing transwomen are subject to ridicule and abuse from everyone including GC feminists on mumsnet.

If you do, then that definition of woman is really very straightforward

Its not a definition of woman though? Circular definitions are not definitions. I have wanted someone to come up with this for so long, but it always just seems to be an 'anyone who identifies as a woman' answer. But, you need to define woman to be able to identify as a woman!

They want the right to be recognised in law under their gender identity in a more straighforward way than with the GRA

And why does gender identity need to be recognised in law? Why only male and female - why not non-binary, Pan gender, a gender? What does any if this have to do with the law? There is already recognition that trans people as a group should not suffer discrimination because they are trans.

Hush now women. A man is talking. A man. Stop and listen to what he has to tell you about his experience of being both a woman and a transwoman. And don’t let him being neither of those things bother you at all. He knows about it because he is a man and you must listen to him.

Also its not that I don't think gender identity is real. I think some people feel this internal sense of self, like a soul. I just don't have one myself. You cannot identify as something without actually being able to define the thing you are identifying as.

Oddly enough, though not one person I have spoke to IRL with on this topic seems to have this 'internal sense of self'. Including a transsexual woman in my family. They have sex dysphoria though, thats what they use rather than 'gender dysphoria' as they say their issue is with their sexed body, not with stereotypes and such.

Males are and always have been dominant in society, they run institutions, make laws and dictate policy. The fact that they are now trying to change the very definition of woman in order to eliminate female’s rights completely, just shows us how much males still desire to keep females under their control in society. So when someone quotes male dominated institutions as some sort of indication that what there are doing is legitimate I have to laugh. They have managed to manipulate some women into going along with their plans, but many of us are now standing up to these men, hence why they try to silence us, threaten etc.

Russia (USSR) has traditionally given ‘sex changes’ to homosexuals as part of ‘treatment’ for homosexuality. Iran does the same. It is hardly progressive.

Quoting the APA is ironic, the DSM V states that men can have transvestic fetish disorder and can be diagnosed with that along with gender dysphoria, so they see nothing wrong with men with a paraphilia entering the category of female and having access to female spaces etc. Not to mention that the APA has been criticised by many for a long time for its close association with drugs companies. It also has not had a very good record on how it has dealt with women and homosexuals.

Also its not that I don't think gender identity is real. I think some people feel this internal sense of self, like a soul. I just don't have one myself. You cannot identify as something without actually being able to define the thing you are identifying as.

If you don't feel it, it simply means you don't suffer incongruence, in the same way it's unlikly you'll notice you have proprioception. "Identity" is a very poor term, really, it's more like knowledge. Do you know you are a woman? Your gender identity is "woman." That's the idea, anyway.

SausageOnAFork I've been posting for two reasons; one, there appears to be no one representing the non-GC trans side, and two, to learn women's view. But fair enough, I'm out.

I can see no reason why gender identity should be prioritized over sex. One is testable and grounded in reality. The other is entirely subjective and ultimately untestable.

I support people presenting as they wish, though they may have to accept that some presentations will limit their employment opportunities, just as other extreme body mods do.

So wear what you like, call yourself what you like, but that's gender identity. It doesn't change your sex so shouldn't affect sex based rights.

In the UK both sexes prefer sex segregation for reasons of privacy and dignity. More importantly, we know men as a class pose a risk to women as a class. This is the main reason women have sex segregated spaces for times when they are naked or otherwise vulnerable.

I see no reason why having a feminine gender identity and a male body should entitle someone to access women's sex segregated spaces. If you're gender fluid does that entitle you to yoyo between the two, ffs? If you want to "queer" gender, fill your boots, but it doesn't change your sex or the risk men pose to women.

Gender ideology poses a real threat to the rights of women. It's got a lot of money and influence. But in terms of intellectual content it's plain daft. Makes no sense at all.

Non-gc / trans side of the arguement are more than capable of representing themselves. They don’t need you to do it for them.
At no point have you been interested in learning learning women’s views, you have just been telling us how wrong we are.

Gender identity is a metaphysical belief. I appreciate that some believe they have one, just as some believe they have an immortal soul.

Believe whatever you like.

Legislating for it, on the other hand, turns the legislating state into a theocracy. Up with this, I, an atheist, do not wish to put.

By "widely accepted" I mean accepted by the EHRC, many democratic governments (66 states in 2008), and the UN is heading that way, too. Basically, and I am sure this is no coincidence, states in which homosexuality and same sex marriage is legal accept the principles, states which deny gay rights oppose them.

Have you read the Yogyakarta Principles, DadJoke? You are aware that they are "Principles on the application of international human rights law in relation to sexual orientation and gender identity". It seems that they were originally written with gay rights in mind, but somehow 'gender identity' got tagged on, and that's where there is a problem. So the fact that states which deny gay rights oppose them is unsurprising.

What is lost in all this, of course, is that transgender ideology is fundamentally homophobic (see Iran for an extreme example of this), so gay rights and transgender rights are in opposition to each other. If we can all have a proper discussion about this instead of #nodebate and shouts of 'transphobe' and 'bigot' at anyone who doesn't believe that TWAW, more people will understant that there is a direct conflict between transgenderism and gay rights.

That's aside from the almost universal acceptance in the medical professionals in western democracies that gender identity is real.

Do you have a reference for that?

But fair enough, I'm out.

Have the questions got too difficult for you, DadJoke?

But, you need to define woman to be able to identify as a woman!

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I've managed to get two answers to the question, both unsatisfactory:

1. "Woman" is subjective and defined by each individual [and therefore useless as a common definition]

2. A "woman" is someone who believes themselves to be a woman [circular, and therefore useless]

I think that this vague hand-waving happens because the honest gender-identity-based definition of "woman" is actually fundamentally sex-based instead:

A "woman" is an adult human female; OR an adult human male who would prefer to have been, but was not, born into a female body; OR an adult human male who prefers some or all of the various dress, mannerisms and social presentations that are predominantly associated with adult human females

If your transwoman then claims to be female as well as a woman, you'd have to replace "female" in the above with references to the reproductive system. I didn't bother because it's already too long, but the same principle applies.

If you don't feel it, it simply means you don't suffer incongruence, in the same way it's unlikly you'll notice you have proprioception

Plenty of people don’t believe they have a male or female gender. Some describe themselves as non-binary, agender or pan-gender, and some as gender critical, and a larger amount never knew that gender identity existed in the first place.

You don’t have to feel any affinity with your body one way or the other to acknowledge that it exists and that it has male or female organs - Much as acceptance that Trump is president doesn’t imply any feeling of ‘congruence’ with the fact that he is president. It is just an objective fact.

Equally, a feeling that there is something wrong about your body can’t translate into a feeling that you are instead male or female without some kind of perception of what male or female means.

Some people have a strong sense of gender identity, some people don’t. It’s a completely subjective concept. Some trans women are happy with their male bodies and have no intention of changing them in any way. Plenty of women feel disassociated from their bodies for various reasons without thinking that they are male.

Legislating for it, on the other hand, turns the legislating state into a theocracy. Up with this, I, an atheist, do not wish to put.

Agree, and am stunned that seemingly rational people can’t see this.

"Identity" is a very poor term, really, it's more like knowledge. Do you know you are a woman? Your gender identity is "woman." That's the idea, anyway.

I don't have a gender identity. Gender is a tool of the patriarchy and one of the main roots of women's oppression.

I Googled "list of feminine qualities". Got a shedload of results.

Words like: gentleness, empathy, sensitivity, caring, sweetness, compassion, tolerance, nurturance, deference, acquiescence, submission, yielding, receptivity, acceptance, understanding...

It's no wonder men who identify as women are raging at us. We're not being acquiescent, submissive or yielding as they have the right to expect from us wims. Though they aren't either, to be fair. Not madly feminine to tell people to suck your big lady cock.

I know I'm a woman because of my body and the way living in that body has affected my life - sexual assaults, having babies and so forth. I don't have any other route to go. Feminity is a cliché and I definitely don't see myself as having a gendered soul.

The people I am most like are my DF and one of my DBs. We're a bit eccentric, and really are very alike in our thinking. Unless I'm thinking about something that relates to my sex I don't think of myself as female or male. I'm just me.

You know nothing about feminism, do you? Women don't want to be recognized as "women". What we want, after all those centuries of oppression, is to be recognized as fully human.

Legislating for it, on the other hand, turns the legislating state into a theocracy. Up with this, I, an atheist, do not wish to put.

This, exactly.

A lot of people claim they ‘know’ that God exists.

Indeed.

Not madly feminine to tell people to suck your big lady cock.

And doesn’t really give the impression of somebody who feels ‘incongruence’ with their body.