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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Serious official criticism of Butterfly

205 replies

Charliethefeminist · 14/10/2018 04:13

link

I have an issue with my login so good luck with the link. You might only get the headline.

This is serious journalism by Andrew Gilligan.

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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/10/2018 08:06

3 families whose children committed suicide and 4 children who attempted it - that's heartbreaking

but yes, very much in line with the rates for children referred to CAMHS. The ludicrous inflated statistics are so damaging. being suicidal is not a common side effect of being trans ffs

and for gods sake, how could you know about those three children and argue for anything that reduced medical involvement for children who believe themselves to have gender dysphoria? Self ID would make it less likely that those children got the help they needed

this is a great article

Binglebong · 14/10/2018 08:10

This is a genuine question, not an attempt to be goady.

There have recently attempts to bring private prosecutions against several gender critical feminists as the people who brought them felt the CPS didn't do enough. Is there any point in doing the same to Susie Green for taking her child abroad for genital surgery after first illegally obtaining drugs? I have no doubt she thought she was doing the right thing, but then I'm sure parents who support fgm think the same. And given the massive influence she currently has and the way she encourages surgery would suggest it is in public interest.

merrymouse · 14/10/2018 08:11

Clearly didn’t occur to the programme makers or Friel that this was a callous and cruel thing to do. All charities have a tendency to emphasise the negative aspects of a condition to gain funding and attention, but even when it is true the information can be devastating for families.

To ignore the advice of experts and cavalierly quote dodgy information for clearly political reasons is very irresponsible and ITV have some explaining to do.

LizzieSiddal · 14/10/2018 08:19

I wonder if the drama quotes the grossly inaccurate, 48% figure.

It’s a shame we don’t know, in light of this article, we could bombard ITV with emails/tweets, to ensure it’s taken out before being broadcast.

LizzieSiddal · 14/10/2018 08:22

This article quotes Transgender Trend and also criticises Suzie Geeen.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6273575/Parents-fury-Anna-Friels-one-sided-transgender-drama-Butterfly.html

kesstrel · 14/10/2018 08:23

Binglebong I wouldn't want to see a private prosecution. I think it would lead to a lot of sympathy for her, plus it could undermine the importance of parental input into these decisions. I believe she did what she thought was right, however misguided she was; the important thing is to shift the narrative toward an emphasis on a research and evidence-based approach to these issues, rather than one led by trans propaganda.

Serfisafleur · 14/10/2018 08:23

Yes I've often wondered about that Binglebong
Also prosecuting AC for employing their father DC for political campaigning, whilst knowing about the crime investigation but not disclosing this. No one else seems to be bothering to prosecute any of these people who behave illegally.

Serfisafleur · 14/10/2018 08:24

What's the WYP?

Volant · 14/10/2018 08:32

It mentions the taking of a child abroad for surgery. I thought that was an offence.

Taking a child abroad for surgery isn't an offence in itself. However, taking them abroad for certain types of surgery (e.g. FGM) may be.

arranfan · 14/10/2018 08:59

I wouldn't want to see a private prosecution

Agreed - if her child wanted to bring one, that would be a different matter.

I wonder if the drama quotes the grossly inaccurate, 48% figure.

You know the voiceover at the end of similar programmes, IF you've been affected by any of the issue ... There should be a fact check. One that states that that figure was dramatic licence and is untrue. I think they have a broadcaster's responsibility to do that in light of Samaritans' guidelines for reporting/discussing suicide.

R0wantrees · 14/10/2018 09:07

Professor Michael Biggs' guest post on TransgenderTrend's website provides the analysis of the data and also comment on the way it has been used in Butterfly, by Mermaids charity and individual TRAs:
(extract)
‘I want a happy daughter, not a dead son’, proclaims Anna Friel in the new ITV drama Butterfly. This line required no creativity from the scriptwriter, as it is a constant refrain in interviews with parents. ‘I’d rather have a live daughter than a dead son.’ ‘We prefer to have a living son than a dead daughter’. ‘Our only choice was to have a dead son or a living daughter.’ ‘I’d rather have a living son than a dead daughter’. ‘Do you want a happy little girl or a dead little boy?’ ‘My wife and I decided that we would much rather have a happy, healthy daughter than a dead son.’
ITV’s drama was heavily influenced by Mermaids, the British organization invested in the transgendering of children. According to its chief executive, Susie Green:

‘I have my daughter, whole and alive, but if I had refused to listen then it’s very likely that I would have a dead son.’

Like other transgendering advocates, she never shies from raising the spectre of suicide" (continues)

concludes:
Although calculated from only four suicides, the suicide rate is much higher than for teenagers overall—in my rough (over)estimate, 13 times greater. This is a genuine cause for concern. By comparison, anorexia multiplies the risk of suicide by 18 or 31 times (depending on the method of estimation), while depression multiplies it by 20 (Smith, Zuromski, and Dodd 2018). One study finds that autism multiplies the risk of suicide by a factor of 8 (Hirvikoski et al. 2016). This latter figure is especially relevant, given the fact that 35% of children referred to GIDS recently have moderate to severe autism (Butler, De Graaf, Wren, and Carmichael 2018).

Whether the higher rate of suicide among trans-identified teens is due to gender dysphoria or to co-incident conditions such as autism deserves urgent research. At the same time, we must realize that suicides of trans-identified children are rare tragedies and not—as transgendering organizations like Mermaids imply—a common occurrence. Rational and compassionate policy-making cannot be driven by the threat of suicide."
www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/

Ereshkigal · 14/10/2018 09:12

The statistics figure was once described by trans actress Rebecca Root as 'in our favour' in a film about the campaign for self ID.

Yes, that was a jaw dropping slip of the tongue.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 14/10/2018 09:13

I'm glad to see this analysis in the Times. It's pretty worrying that the producers "consulted widely" but then fell out with the GIDS.

It'd be great if the Samaritans could put out a statement too.

R0wantrees · 14/10/2018 09:14

Interesting to note that Mermaids FB post about Butterfly does now have a link to Samaritans.

BBC coverage: 'How ITV's Butterfly hopes to be a 'game-changer' for trans people'

(extract)
ITV has set itself a challenge with its latest drama Butterfly.

It tells the story of a transgender child and a family struggling to know how best to deal with the transition. There are myriad pitfalls in turning such an emotive issue into primetime entertainment.

Sensitivity, veracity, understanding for the subject and the individuals it affects, lie on one side.

On the other, there's regard and respect for your audience and its differing opinions.

Earlier in the year, Nicola Shindler, of the drama's makers Red, told the Mirror: "We're going to get it wrong for some people."

And some people have expressed their objections online pre-transmission.

But Butterfly's producers believe drama is the best format in which to enhance understanding, even if widespread acceptance is not expected.

They also have the support of transgender and gender variant equality campaigners, who call the three-parter a "game-changer". (continues)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-45672230

Ereshkigal · 14/10/2018 09:15

What's the WYP?

Woke West Yorkshire Police.

arranfan · 14/10/2018 09:16

Woke Youth Police - it's a Flying Squad with Roving Brief set up to police those of us on the wrong side of history and organise our boarding points for the gulag.

Ereshkigal · 14/10/2018 09:20

I'm glad to see this analysis in the Times. It's pretty worrying that the producers "consulted widely" but then fell out with the GIDS.

Isn't it.

BettyDuMonde · 14/10/2018 09:29

Fell out with GIDsS because GIDS said the entire narrative was a crock of damaging shit, perhaps?

Elementtree · 14/10/2018 09:33

Surely if, in an effort to authenticate suffering, you repeatedly make false claims that children who have gender dysphoria are at greater risk of suicide, you are at risk of promoting suicide as a method by which to authenticate your trans identity?

Charliethefeminist · 14/10/2018 09:34

Re how many people will watch the prog vs how many people read the Times

I don't think we can underestimate non-Times readers in their reaction to this programme. At all.

On a separate note, if Alison Steadman has agreed to play a 'stupid bigoted granny', she is off my Christmas card list

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happydappy2 · 14/10/2018 09:37

Mermaids are a pressure group, more than a charity. The fact their logo is shown in the programme & they advised so forcefully on the making of it, is just wrong on so many levels. ITV should pull it, or make clear its a drama devoid of any facts.

merrymouse · 14/10/2018 09:39

fullfact.org/health/young-trans-people/

Here is full fact’s comment on the data.

Charliethefeminist · 14/10/2018 09:39

Spanna
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/&ved=2ahUKEwiml9eUw4XeAhWCBsAKHemcDLYQFjAAegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw1mqchdt_DwlaSBptaR8Lc9&cshid=1539506253027" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">This link can help you understand
The screenshot is the author of the cited study saying that it's unfortunate the results were misinterpreted.

Serious official criticism of Butterfly
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AspieAndProud · 14/10/2018 09:40

3 families whose children committed suicide and 4 children who attempted it - that's heartbreaking

So if the 48% statistic was correct, that would mean that there are actually fewer than 14 transpeople in the country?