Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

[Freespeecher]

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

You're asking why female prisoners shouldn't have to share showers with a trans man convicted of sexually assaulting women???

Just fucking STOP.

There are fewer than 20 highest risk women prisoners in the entire female estate. One of them is Shauna Hoare, who chopped up her boyfriend's stepsister into little bits and left her in a shed. Another is Rose West, and surely even you with your arrant ignorance, know about her. Do you think pitiful Carlos and her black pudding strap on might possibly be a bit scared to shower with either of them rather than the other way around?

Prisons are organised according to risk. There are very few high risk women prisoners but they have to share with someone.

Why should the prison service accommodate the gender religion to the point where it's causing harm to the rest of the prisoners and potentially putting staff at risk too? If trans prisoners want makeup etc then maybe that's something where they can be given what they're asking for without causing harm to others. But that's as far as it should go/

It absolutely shouldn't AAK. Hence talking about third spaces where transwomen can practice their beliefs without imposing them on others.

Lang Can I reply with women do not have penises? Even faux ones.

Because I'd no more like to be raped with a faux penis than a real one if the transman was that kind of risk (which is very highly unusual, but I was talking about that specific example and even then it was not against a stranger)

Outside prison, I do accept transmen are female whatever they think, but I would still find it very unsettling to be changing and maybe having to share showers with a very masculine transman with a faux-penis, say at the gym. Or a Stephen Whittle look alike with a pump up penis.

To be honest it would make me wonder if they are male or female and how do I tell without having a good look at their hips, face etc. I have not seen a phalloplastied faux penis and I don't want to be having to look closely to work it out. I don't need that kind of head-fuck in my life any more than wondering whether a transwoman is a cross dresser or a genuine dysphoric or a transsexual or pervy man.

A butch or GC woman is entirely different and as you say very obviously a woman even through clothes but some transmen do go to greater lengths with their physique and my honed by experienced natural instincts that are pinged by men, would in some cases be pinged by a very masculine transman.

If plastic surgery and hormones weren't available this wouldn't be an issue, but they are and now it is. That is not my doing, it is the transman's intention to deceive/ pass after all.

I want to be able to trust people not have to think twice. And by think twice, sometimes I mean have that instant jolt of fear.

I think if you go to extreme lengths to try to be male and have a pump up penis that can be used to penetrate, then I think you do remove yourself from certain intimate women's areas where it might make other women worry.

Not excluded from women's healthcare, or from general groups, and if self ID is firmly stamped out then not from toilets.

But with where we are with the ambiguity around who is self IDing and who is not, then I think some transmen have excluded themselves from women's intimate spaces where I or another woman or a girl might wonder or worry.

I wouldn't want a smear from a masculine close to passing transman either (although that would be unlikely too I suppose), because again at the moment with all this self iD it would make me question whether it was a male or female. I do not want to have to be questioning that in those circumstances. I want it to be clear and safe and predictable. Same with a counsellor if I have requested female. But again highly, highly unlikely but not impossible.

I would hope that a transman would understand what they are identifying into when they transition, and recognise that males are generally a risk to women and that if you aim to appear as one, then the more you pass the more you are likely to provoke the same reaction from women as a male would in some instances, and I guess is what they actually want to achieve anyway.

Hope I haven't waffled. Just trying to be clear. It is hugely complex and highly unlikely and I am talking about certain specific circumstances and females are a lower risk, though personality disorder is associated with some transmen so there is that too.

Brownpaperteddy: "That's interesting although nearly 40 years ago. I wonder what human rights laws would say now? Given that being trans gender is a protected characteristic what does that mean for prisons?"

Transgender is not a protected characteristic, people who have had surgery and hormone interventions ie transexuals are

That took me ages so things have moved on, but surely a a transman with a phalloplasty is going to cause some kind of reaction even with high risk violent women. It is impossible that it wouldn't change something in the dynamic in some way. I can't imagine it would be helpful.

Also these high risk women may have had abuse from men as part of what made them what they are. Gaslighting all sorts. Maybe, maybe not. I acknowlegde your greater perosnal experience Lang.

But I do think that however much we don't want it to, we do register and react to appearance and sex and being trans by altering your physical appearance messes with our heads, in a similar way to how pronouns do I think. Like when Barrcker says type he not she and see how it affects you.

Restingbutchface Love the Snickers analogy.

Transgender is not a protected characteristic, people who have had surgery and hormone interventions ie transexuals are

Also not the case. People who have or are in the process of gain a gender reassignment certificate are protected. To do this you (currently) you need two doctors to sign off on you having gender disphoria and to be able to prove you have lived as the opposite gender for at least two years (bills in new name etc). No surgery or hormones are required.

Fear thank you. I was trying to explain to a 19 year old who is very woke! I think I might have got through a bit, she came downstairs and said if she had to change at work with a person with a penI'd she would feel uncomfortable due to past trauma but had never considers the whole self id thing.

Excellent thread so far.
So should a man who has not paid his TV licence be put in a woman's prison?
What's the difference between a man with a penis who has not paid his TV licence and a transwoman with a penis who has not paid their TV licence?
Because there isn't a blood test or nice little birth mark stating 'genuinely convinced of being internally female despite outward appearance' and 'pisstaker'. Nobody knows. It's not possible to tell, you go on the subjective opinion of the person. Who may be lying. Or may not be. Is that a fair risk to ask women to suck up

Facts also must be faced that being genuinely convinced of being internally female, and being properly trans doesn't mean the same person isn't also a sex offender. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. Is that a fair risk to ask women to suck up?

How do the women who will be imprisoned with this male bodied person and expected to live/toilet/shower alongside them feel about it? Have they made an informed choice regarding their safety, privacy and dignity? Have they seen their interests fairly weighed up against the interests of the male bodied person who wishes to have access to them? Do they consent? Does anyone give a fuck if they do or not?

Crack on. Go for it. Create gender neutral spaces which will be a paradise of inclusiveness for everyone who wishes to use them. What you feel ok to do with your body, where you put your boundaries, who you feel comfortable toileting and showering and undressing and sleeping alongside is wholly your decision and I'll applaud you being as inclusive as you like. My body and my boundaries however are equally mine, and equally my decision. You don't get to decide this for women, you don't get to guilt, shame and coerce women into surrendering their boundaries to benefit male born people. That's not inclusive at all. It's not even basically moral

Women have repeatedly argued for third spaces. Which is actually really bloody big of us, because we shouldn't have to be campaigning for solutions to transpeople's problems when Stonewall are sitting on a big pile of money and doing dick all.

Thread greatest hits so far

I don’t think trans women should be housed in female prisons. It is irrelevant whether they have retained their original male genetalia or have transitioned to a surgical approximation of female. They are still biologically and genetically men and have all the physical attributes that this entails i.e height, strength, etc. it is a failure of basic safeguarding to house them with the female population. I agree with PP who suggested that segregated provision for trans women must instead be made within the male estate.

It's unsurprising that Ricky hasn't been targeted by TRAs for this post. I expected a 'just a word of warning' from the dr.

The doctor seems to have gone a little quiet. Maybe he's actually doing some work. Hopefully not on any actual patients.

Aren't relatively junior NHS doctors normally a bit busy? I never have been able to work out where he finds the time to tweet.

I'd guess that Gervais would have absolutely no shits to give for whatever the doc would threaten him with

It is irrelevant whether they have retained their original male genetalia or have transitioned to a surgical approximation of female. They are still biologically and genetically men and have all the physical attributes that this entails i.e height, strength, etc.
Exactly and this is why the transman red herring is exactly that. Transmen retain female bone structure, no matter how much anabolic steroids affect their bodies. A female bodybuilder on steroids, even with male pattern hair loss and an enlarged clitoris, is not man-sized. And that is someone who trains incredibly hard to build muscle.
We don't see many trans people on real life, there's so much online visibility based on carefully posed photographs, and as other posters have noted, there's a difference between a close up of a bearded, hairy chested person and that person in real life who might be slight, wide hipped and short. It's technically possible a transman in clothes could be read as male, but having seen more phalloplasty pics than I'd like there is no way one could be mistaken for a penis. Metoidioplasty looks more like male genitalia but resembles a micropenis. Again it is possible a woman could read a naked transman with a metoidioplasty as male, so I guess it's something to be considered.
The regulations have got to cover off all eventualities, I guess.

It's technically possible a transman in clothes could be read as male, but having seen more phalloplasty pics than I'd like there is no way one could be mistaken for a penis.

Not to mention that only a few hundred have been performed in the UK and I very much doubt any of the people who have had them are in prison. An even smaller proportion have had phalloplasty than have had vaginoplasty.

The regulations have got to cover off all eventualities, I guess.

Easiest way to do that with the strongest safeguarding: segregate prisons by sex and extend facilities for vulnerable prisoners including, but not limited to, gender non-conforming prisoners.

Musings on third (or more because it's a slippery slope and all that will happen is endless whining from non-binaries who are all posh and will never go to prison anyway to get their own spaces too) spaces are pointless because THIS. WILL. NEVER. HAPPEN. Prisons are in a mess regardless of gender vs sex issues and the scale of investment required to make them not a mess is so huge it would never get down to third spaces on its priority list.

Prisons will remain binary. The only choice on the table is whether that binary refers to sex or "gender identity". I care about women and I neither subscribe to the Religion of Gendered Souls nor think the UK should become a theocracy, so I choose prisons segregated by sex.

Easiest way to do that with the strongest safeguarding: segregate prisons by sex and extend facilities for vulnerable prisoners including, but not limited to, gender non-conforming prisoners.
Agreed, but if we were to put them all in solitary they would take legal action for discrimination. So it does need some thought. And I agree that there is so much that needs to be done in the prison system first, that third spaces are unlikely to happen in the way previous posters have suggested. As a baseline, I agree that prisons should be segregated by sex, and that gender is an expression of personality only and should be given exactly as much weight legally as any other expression of personality.

One of the main benefits of suggesting a third space is to watch the people who object.

Apologies if this has already been answered, but for the purpose of crime statistics, are these rapes recorded as being committed by a male or a female?

Don't go around telling people Stonewall said you can't say someone isn't trans when they've SAID they aren't trans. Stonewall support TRANS people, not people who have said themselves that they're pretending to be trans.

I'm about to go out so don't have time to read the full thread - I just wondered where this came from. Has Karen White actually said he was pretending to be trans?

Givenup- no, you are wrong there. The protected characteristic is for someone with a GRC . Contrary to popular belief you do not need to take hormones or have surgery to get one. You do need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but you don’t need to have any medical treatment.

Prisons will remain binary. The only choice on the table is whether that binary refers to sex or "gender identity". I care about women and I neither subscribe to the Religion of Gendered Souls nor think the UK should become a theocracy, so I choose prisons segregated by sex.

Yes, this is absolutely my position.

(Pancake as far as I know they're currently being recorded by gender. The 2003 Sexual Offences act defines rape as penetration by a penis. Occasionally a woman - old-fashioned, cunty kind of woman- gets convicted under common purpose, e.g. she held the victim down while her male partner committed the rape, but these cases are very rare. So when you see in last years stats that 6 rapes were recorded as being committed by "women" I think you can be pretty certain that at least 5 if not all 6 of these "women" were born with, and still in possession of, a penis at the time of the offence.)