Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

[Freespeecher]

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

Lets not forget that extreme lack of compassion, empathy, respect, emotional control and narcissistic levels of selfishness and entitlement over and above anyone else are qualities that make prisoners a higher risk to others and society.

We shouldn't be treating them like the squeaky wheel; we should be checking we have locked the doors.

Fantastic post @ 13.43, RiverTam. I completely agree.

There's also the aggrieved complainant issue, where some prisoners (and people in general) will use anything as an excuse to piss and moan about how unfair everything is to them (even though they're being treated identically to others) and will file endless timewasting complaints. I suspect that some prisoners have realized that claiming to identify as women moves them from "yeah, he's always been like this, ignore" category to "better grease that squeaky wheel before Stonewall sends the flying Twitter monkeys after you" category.

Personality disorders are a thing and they're overrepresented in the prison population.

(We have one of the vexatious, permanently aggrieved people pestering my workplace currently, and I'm having to remind myself that "off you fuck, pet" is not a professional thing to say frequently.)

I plan to start on Bunbury's "I don't really know much about this but I know better than all you hysterical harpies - a critical examination of misogyny in action" next.

Is that the audiobook version or the helpful colouring one with illustrations of brain slices, classic line drawings of harpies, and such?

Bunbury's oeuvre is considerable - I'm so pleased she's getting the recognition she deserves.

You know, I was considering the audiobook for easy listening while traveling, but decided that I needed the hard copy edition to really gain the full benefit of the work.

Who are the authorities in this case?
Where will the money come from to build and staff a 3rd space?

By authorities I meant whoever is responsible for the criminal justice system - so the government, prison authorities etc. I have no idea what the prison stock is like but surely space within existing prisons could be appropriated? The numbers can't warrant building new prisons surely?

The some occasions I did mean for all trans prisoners. Sorry. I take chemo drugs once a week (so why I'm always on here over the weekend - takes my mind off things) and the side effects are starting so I'm not explaining myself very well. By the some occasions I did mean all trans prisoners but not all prisoners, if that makes sense?

Personality disorders are a thing and they're overrepresented in the prison population.

Exactly AAK I don't think enough people get that or what it really means or looks like and the differences that makes for treatment and managing people.

(We have one of the vexatious, permanently aggrieved people pestering my workplace currently, and I'm having to remind myself that "off you fuck, pet" is not a professional thing to say frequently.)

That person sounds like hell :( I am finding the FUCK OFF BRIAN meme to be very therapeutic at the moment.

We don't need third spaces. Endless slippery slope appeasement. We need prisons segregated by sex with sufficient investment into safely accommodating vulnerable prisoners - including, but not limited to, gender non-conforming prisoners.

This is only a difficult concept if you've been on the Kool Aid.

AngryAttackKittens

Re the vexatious complainer - undoubtedly there are some who complain just to exploit situations to their own ends. Some I think though are exhibiting that behaviour as a symptom of not having their voice heard before. Not sure how the tangled threads get unpicked though.

I guess we are all a sum of our past experiences.

Brownpaperteddy: "Has it though? How have they housed trans women in the prison system until now? Have trans women with a GRC been placed in men's prisons?"

In 1980, Hugh Cornwell wrote a book, Inside Information based on his short prison sentence in Pentonville prison for a drugs conviction earlier that year.
He briefly mentions a transwoman being incarcerated on the same block. From what I remember, the prison authorities weren't quite sure what to do with her. She was allowed her own clothes and had a single cell, but she wasn't segregated otherwise. The other inmates treated her as a woman, even flirting with her.

He doesn't mention violence at all. Presumably there was none.

I have no idea what the prison stock is like

This is becoming increasingly clear.

I plan to start on Bunbury's "I don't really know much about this but I know better than all you hysterical harpies - a critical examination of misogyny in action" next.

Chapter 3: The Brass Face in Proclaiming Ignorance is particularly good.

Tanith

That's interesting although nearly 40 years ago. I wonder what human rights laws would say now? Given that being trans gender is a protected characteristic what does that mean for prisons?

Some I think though are exhibiting that behaviour as a symptom of not having their voice heard before.

Those with certain personality disorders can and will convince many people that they are in this group. Except those of us who've dealt with individuals with said personality disorders before, which seems to work as a sort of inoculation - once you've seen it you can't unsee is, and the behavior is like nails down a blackboard afterwards.

Going by some things the prison service has said they too are able to correctly identify many of those demanding transfer to the female estate as being in that group, but their hands are being tied/forced by all the TRA lobbying and the "why can't you just be nice to this poor vulnerable group?" stuff coming from some sections of the public.

He briefly mentions a transwoman being incarcerated on the same block. From what I remember, the prison authorities weren't quite sure what to do with her. She was allowed her own clothes and had a single cell, but she wasn't segregated otherwise. The other inmates treated her as a woman, even flirting with her.

I wonder what surgery the other prisoners imagine she had had?

This may help:

"There are very few cases which deal with this, but I would suggest that this view is supported by the comments of HHJ Jeremy Richardson QC in R (Green) [2] v Secretary of State for Justice [2013] EWHC 3491 (Admin). In that case the Court was dealing with an application by a male prisoner who had murdered his wife and who now wished to be considered female. Green did not have a dysphoria diagnosis but was treated by the prison and the court with the courtesy of being referred to as a woman (presumably socially, given that neither biological nor legal womanhood applied). At paragraphs 66 – 70 HHJ Richardson said that

“A comparator has to be found in order for there to be discrimination or for the claimant to show she has had less favourable treatment. The claimant asserts the comparator should be a female prisoner; whereas the governor contends it should be a male prisoner. There can be no doubt the claimant has a protected characteristic – gender reassignment. The claimant is, however, male. The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment."

From manfridayuk.org/2018/08/22/is-everyone-really-wrong/

This seems to be a very recent ruling from Baroness Hale:

“Nobody should be forced to have or express a political opinion in which he does not believe.”
(Zimbabwe) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2012] UKSC 38; [2013] 1 AC 152 [42].

twitter.com/RadFemLawyer/status/1050069596974272512

I've no idea how it intersects with the Bench Book and if it trumps it, so to speak. Perhaps the presiding figure (e.g., judge) will have the final decision about how this is handled in the courtroom.

The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment."

Does that have wider implications?

I as a woman, can claim discrimination if I've been treated differently to a man.

Going forward who would be a comparator for me then?

Lang agreed. Stop pretending trans is a thing.

As per a trans friend of mine if it has a willy its a bloke
Once she had her surgery she's a woman no willy, sexually functional vagina
and I fully accept that

those who are frankly dressing up are NOT the other "gender"

This is such a huge change in the fabric of our society. I don't pretend to have a handle on it at all but I do realise that one rule won't cover everything.

It does feel as though all of the laws will need changing and not just trying to tweak bits and pieces or change one area and not another.

So the Baroness Hale ruling is interesting. That was in relation to the slogan on the cake wasn't it? Wonder if equalities law will over rule that?

but I do realise that one rule won't cover everything

No it doesnt

But it never did...so why the change?

"This is such a huge change in the fabric of our society" - is it? It seems to me like men demanding things of women, which is fairly standard.

But yes i agree re tweaking