Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

[Freespeecher]

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

I have absolutely no problem with sharing showers, dormitories etc with women no matter how masculine they appear. I have a highly masculine lesbian family member. Still female bodied.

I'm not explaining to you your homophobia. Fuck right off.

Lesbians, gays and bisexuals.

That was to Brown

Has anyone signed the petition? From within the tweet

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Women have repeatedly argued for third spaces. Which is actually really bloody big of us, because we shouldn't have to be campaigning for solutions to transpeople's problems when Stonewall are sitting on a big pile of money and doing dick all.

But that is not our focus, because it has nothing to do with whether women are put in danger by housing them with male bodied individuals.

So tell me Brown if a man presented as 'feminine' in a male prison where should he be placed for his 'safety'?

I'm never campaigning for a third space. Fuck that shite.

I'm done with pandering to what men want.

placemats

I'm not talking about lesbian, gay or bisexual people at all.

I am talking about trans men - who may be gay, heterosexual or bi sexual.

I'm talking about a trans man who may present with a full beard and masculine build. I cannot see how insisting that they be housed in a female prison, because they were born female, won't be traumatising for some vulnerable female prisoners.

This has nothing at all to do with sexual orientation so I have no idea why you are being so aggressive towards me.

For me this is a big flaw in the argument. If you succeed in banning trans women from female spaces then trans men will be included in female spaces and I don't see how that accommodates vulnerable women.

Not with a third space provision. Third spaces might also solve the non-binary question, I think.

Allowing self-identified trans men into male spaces should be with the consent of men. It is true that testosterone can help the trans man "pass" much easier, but men should also be consulted.
The power dynamics and risks are also important to contextualize. The extra risks of allowing any and all self identified transmen into male spaces are being knowingly taken on by the trans man himself. He is the one who is most at risk, and he therefore can give informed consent. As he is biologically female, he is not likely to pose a significant risk to biological males, but again, men should also have a say for reasons of privacy, comfort, etc.

The extra risk of allowing any and all self identified transwomen into female spaces is not actually being carried by the transwoman herself. Because males are statistically more likely to be sexual offenders or violent then actually the harm from such policies will be borne by the females who are already in that space. Women right now are not even being properly consulted as to whether they think the extra risk is worth it.

So in other words, transwomen are not knowingly taking on an extra liability as a fully informed individual in order to go into women's spaces. What's actually happening is that in order to accommodate transwomen, females as a group have been demanded to remove their boundaries, without informed consent or even a seat at the negotiating table, and with potentially very significant costs to women's comfort and safety.

The reason transwomen in women's spaces is the big issue, is because the people taking on the additional risk are the already vulnerable natal women, and therefore it is their opinion that really matters.

Absent the existence of category A prisons for women, however, the prison authorities would have no option but to place White with vulnerable women serving sentences for much lesser offences, were he to be placed in the women's estate again.

There are fewer than 20 highest risk category women prisoners at any one time. That's why we haven't had dedicated prisons for them. Should the prison service continue with this lunatic policy, we might well need one. This new "women's prison" will be populated by a dozen women and the rest will be trans. So effectively, it'll be the same thing: a male prison for high risk male prisoners plus Rose West and Shauna Hoare.

brownpaperteddy I think knowing that they cannot be anything other than biological woman, despite how they choose to present, might allay some of that trauma? I don’t know if that would be the case but I’d hope it would make a difference knowing that they were women.

placemats

It's nothing to do with a man presenting as feminine, or a women presenting as masculine. If they are both identifying with their birth sex then they should be housed in the appropriate prison, accordingly. Within this, as I understand it, prisoners deemed vulnerable or too violent to be housed in the general population they will be segregated either for their safety or the safety of others. I guess here if the feminine man is at risk the prison service should take the appropriate action.

The question of trans gender prisoners is so much more complicated. Not least because of the sheer spectrum included under the umbrella of trans. I don't think it will be as easy as if A then B or if C then D.

On the surface it seems that there will have to be a 3rd space created and then possibly sub categories created within this 3rd space.

Prisons should be sex segregated. I do not believe that trans women at any stage should be admitted. Because it is a slippery slope. We all know how ludicrously badly managed prisons in this country are, and if you don’t I can tell you personally as a visitor they are appalling places. Karen White is a shining example of their massive incompetence. They are woefully underfunded, and not a place where you could reliably be safe as it is. There is massive wide spread drug abuse that is tolerated as a means of control. Women in prison are vulnerable, one because they got there and have probably suffered sexual or physical abuse already, and two because of the actual prison system and conditions. The very least that can be done is to keep those women and their babies and small children free from the possibility of sexual abuse or rape. They are clearly and historically now proven to be unable to assess prisoners on a case by case basis. If there needs to a be a new section that deals with trans people then they need to sort that out themselves.

Well get on with it then Brown. Start campaigning for it. Good luck.

heresyandwitchcraft

Thank you for that really even handed explanation.

I agree with the points you make.

I do hope that when the new policies are created that they can be balanced like that.

My fear is that it will be "if we do this for men then we do exactly the same for women".

It looks as though there was a period during which high risk female prisoners were held in men's prisons, then Low Newton was adapted to become the UK's only high security women's prison.

What they tend to do is incorporate highest risk women prisoners (as above, around a dozen at any one time) in institutions that combine a women's prison with a male youth offender wing. That way they can pool resources for high risk. But in Northern Ireland (and at periods in Scotland) they have put highest risk female prisoners in special accommodation in the male estate - because so few women are highest risk.

There are several FTM trans prisoners. None are in the male estate.

It doesn’t matter what someone looks like if you know they are a man or a woman does it. The most masculine looking woman is still a woman and even if she is in prison with you, she is 98% less likely to be a violent offender than a male prisoner.

I’m not traumatised by masculine women and I’m not afraid of women who identify themselves as trans male or non binary or whatever they want to identify as. Because they are women and are highly unlikely to be violent or sexually violent even if they are in prison.

I find it massively offensive to women that posters such as teddy argue they’re scared of short haircuts or pecs, on both sides of that equation. Women are scared of men because they use their bigger stronger bodies (or the threat of them) to hold us down and force us to do things we don’t want to.

Well get on with it then Brown. Start campaigning for it. Good luck.
Why are you singling me out placemats?

I'm not the only poster calling for a 3rd space. Why single me out? And still no explanation for you calling me homophobic?

The question of trans gender prisoners is so much more complicated.

It's not. Karen White is not complicated at all.

Not least because of the sheer spectrum included under the umbrella of trans.

Utter shite.

I'm supposing you really think we should all just get over it.

Brown

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

Homophobic.

Brown, no, you're not the only poster calling for a third space. But you haven't really explained why it's the responsibility of women to solve that issue or campaign for it, beyond the fact that we are being threatened with male bodies in female spaces.

I find it massively offensive to women that posters such as teddy argue they’re scared of short haircuts or pecs, on both sides of that equation.

Where on earth have I said that? How do you know that I don't have short hair and muscles?

Other posters have expressed concern that vulnerable female prisoners would be affected by sharing a cell with a trans woman because of previous male instigated trauma. I am saying that I'm not sure that it would be ok for those same vulnerable women to share a cell with a trans man either - they may well have a beard and pass easily as male but just may not have a penis. Will that make very much difference?

I would not be comfortable changing in the gym next to a person that had a beard and looked like a man. I'm not particularly interested in what genitals they have.

Nobody. Fucking. Passes.

placemats

Only when you've carefully selected the text and ignored the context and the rest of my posts.

It was very clear that I was talking about trans men, and trans men only, who can appear very masculine.

No it wasn't.

Still you are being obfuscating and disingenuous.