Page 18 | Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 19:38

There are 2 aspects to this situation - trans men and trans women.

I am assuming that whatever is decided about 1 will also apply to the other.

So if you campaign for trans women to be housed in male prisons because they were born male then a natural consequence will be that trans men will be housed in female prisons.

I don't see that a vulnerable female prisoner, who for whatever reason feels unable to be in close proximity to a man, will feel comfortable sharing a cell with a person that looms exactly like a man but just doesn't have a penis.

I think just be careful what you argue for.

My full post. Very clear that I am describing trans men,placemats.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 19:41

I have read your posts. I know that is what you have said but not everyone is saying that.

I think the vast amount of posters on here would be happy with third spaces

I have seen it typed hundreds of times

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 19:43

I think just be careful what you argue for

Oh for christs sake

Behave!

GoldenWonderwall · 12/10/2018 19:44

Male trauma. Male. Not women with flat chests and short hair cuts and beards who work out trauma. It’s offensive to women to say they’re scared of an aesthetic and it’s offensive to trans men to imply their appearance decisions are triggering to women who’ve experienced male violence or sexual violence.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 19:49

But you haven't really explained why it's the responsibility of women to solve that issue or campaign for it

I don't think it's the responsibility for women to campaign for it or to solve the issue. It's for everyone to deal with.

The question of trans gender prisoners is so much more complicated.

It's not. Karen White is not complicated at all.

Sorry but I think it is complicated. I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons (either if they are full post op trans men or women, transitioned 20 years ago and have a GRC). Also being accommodated will be people far along the pathway to transitioning but not yet had surgery, those living as their trans gender but not ever intending on surgery all the way along the spectrum to people who may chose to only self ID without any physical changes. At some point along this spectrum I am assuming the prison authorities will make different decisions as to which prison is appropriate. A 3rd space which can accommodate everyone under this umbrella makes sense.

Flooffloof · 12/10/2018 19:53

Then why not just argue for a 3rd prison space for all trans gender prisoners?

Pretty much everyone new to this situation (every single person I have spoken to, lots of replies on Twitter, Facebook pages etc) says well
What about a third space then?

Then It has to be explained that it's not good enough, for some odd reason some trans people require access only to women's spaces. Can't imagine why.

And although I will not oppose a third space, I will not do any fundraising awareness raising or anything else for men.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 19:54

GoldenWonderwall

Maybe you are right. I have no experience with regards to this.

I only know how I would feel and that would be based on outward physical appearance. I wouldn't think of a person with a beard and masculine appearance, who identified as a man, as female. My reactions and feelings would be as toward a man.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 19:56

for some odd reason some trans people require access only to women's spaces.

Well the authorities will need to insist that on some occasions a 3rd space is the only option. Sadly, none of us can have everything that we want and that really is the only option in this instance.

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 19:57

If you don't think it's the responsibility of women to campaign for third spaces or solve the issue, why are posting in FWR about it? The focus here is on protecting the rights and safety of women and girls, not campaigning for transpeople.

The only reason trans people are discussed here is when certain people demand that women give up rights and protections and use transwomen and transmen as leverage.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 19:59

but just may not have a penis. Will that make very much difference?

(blinks)

I'm sorry, are we still on Earth? Do we originate on different planets? Because on this one, yeah, a female person with muscles but no penis (and therefore no male socialization either) and a male person (usually with penis, though still a problem without) are indeed different things, and women feel safer around the former than the latter.

As Germaine Bunbury, males humans are more violent than female humans regardless of style of dress or level of hairiness.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 20:00

(Has always said, in terms of the great Ms Bunbury. Don't Mumsnet while trying to conduct a totally separate conversation, peeps.)

GoldenWonderwall · 12/10/2018 20:01

Really? Are you sure? Because I think you’d quickly realise that in a place where there are only female born women, that person is a woman. I wouldnt be surprised if your subconscious knew that person was a woman based on other information we pick up that isn’t to do with appearance that can be changed with haircuts or surgery.

If I’m in a room full of cats and there’s a cat in a dog suit, it’s still a cat and will be of no use to me when I try and herd it

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 20:02

And for placemats my first post that set the context for the post that they are calling homophobic

*Despite many on here, and other threads, stating that the effects of testosterone on trans men makes them as dangerous as natal men.

So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?

It was part of a series of posts and not a stand alone comment.

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 20:04

Well the authorities will need to insist that on some occasions a 3rd space is the only option

No, that’s more deflection.

It is up to the trans women to campaign and demand their own space.

I and many others would support that wholeheartedly and genuinely.

What I will not tolerate, ever, is the aggressive commandeering of OUR safe spaces.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 20:05

I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons

One assumes it will just continue as it pretty much always has

Why do people say this argument as if its a brand new thing..never happened before

OMG a female prisoner in a female prison.....nooooooo whatever next!!!

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 20:08

Same argument with toilets too - how can we possibly arrange a system in which women piss in the women's bogs and men piss in the men's? Will we all need identity chips? World gone mad! Etc.

If you have to stoop to that level to defend your position then that position may be a bit shit. Just saying.

AspieAndProud · 12/10/2018 20:08

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

It’s the trolly problem. Do you let the train run on and hit one trans person, or pull the lever and divert it into half the population?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 20:10

I completely agree angry

I always read that going 'do what??'

AspieAndProud · 12/10/2018 20:12

I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons

Unless transwomen are hiding their penises up their backsides beside their mobile phones or having them parachuted over the wall from drones I don’t see what’s so difficult it would be to keep them out of prison.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 20:14

AngryAttackKittens and GoldenWonderwall

I honestly don't know. On another thread a poster quoted a study that showed that trans men, when taking testosterone, actually exhibited male levels and patterns of crime, so they appeared to lose female socialisation. Obviously, these were trans men that committed crime, not all trans men, and I suppose it's possible that they had also committed crimes as females too. I'm not convinced that, certainly within the prison system, that trans men don't pose a physical threat to female prisoners. Again, I know it's relative and individual levels of strength and fitness etc may balance some situations out.

You can't always identify trans men or women. I don't think it's that clear cut.

I honestly can't imagine relating to a female bodied person with a full beard, male name, wearing men's clothes as a woman. And therefore I wouldn't feel comfortable changing or showering or sleeping in the same room as them.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 20:17

No, that’s more deflection.

It is up to the trans women to campaign and demand their own space.

Ok. So what are you arguing then?

Just - no? Trans women can't be housed in women's prison. Is that it? No alternative. No consideration as to where trans men prisoners go?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 20:17

breon

If a femal poses a threat to other female prisoners they will be segregated

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 20:20

I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons

One assumes it will just continue as it pretty much always has

Has it though? How have they housed trans women in the prison system until now? Have trans women with a GRC been placed in men's prisons?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 20:20

Oh god would you look at that

Apologies brown

On my phone, watching tv and mumsnetting!!!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 12/10/2018 20:21

brown

Dunno, but personally its the self id bit i mainly have a problem with

Wonder if we could find out?

I bet its a relatively recent thing