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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

585 replies

Freespeecher · 12/10/2018 12:28

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

OP posts:
Knicknackpaddyflak · 12/10/2018 18:20

Not even relevant: there is no question of transmen moving to mens facilities no matter what the degree of their transition. The authorities refuse to consider it because of safety.

However a third space fully enables transmen to have an alternative.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 18:21

Well, funnily enough Brown there doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much campaigning going on to get transmen moved to the male estate. One might almost think it was because it was blindingly obvious to everyone that, being biologically female, they would not be safe in the men's estate, so no one is that stupid.

I have only ever seen Tara-Hudson type petitions and "look at this poor transwoman banged up in a men's prison" type articles for transwomen. I have never seen one for a transman.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/10/2018 18:22

Transmen are women

i doubt even the most determined transman would want to be in a mens prison

i'm not convinced there actually are any transmen currently in prison? I've certainly never heard of any

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 12/10/2018 18:22

Would a transmen want to be in a female prison?

I don't think it would be safe for them to be housed with a male prison population though, despite the beard. But I don't think TM are housed with male prisoners.

NopeNi · 12/10/2018 18:22

So they've decided that logically women-who-identify-as-men can never be put in with men because men are dangerous ... but men-who-identify-as-women should definitely go in with women?

None of this makes any bloody sense!

JackyHolyoake · 12/10/2018 18:22

BrownPaperTeddy "So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?"

Yes ... since they are much less likely to abuse other female inmates than any male ... and I rather suspect most, if not all, would want to be in the female estate for their own safety and wellbeing.

It would be interesting to know how many FtMs are in the prison system, wouldn't it?

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 18:26

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 18:28

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

No idea. Nobody asked them when it was a person with a penis put in beside them. What makes you think they’d be asked about this?

All it does is show that a 3rd space is needed. Because it isn’t men being told to sacrifice their spaces, or having people forced (sometimes literally) on them is it? Ever.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 18:28

It would be interesting to know how many FtMs are in the prison system, wouldn't it?

It would be interesting. Particularly as posters on other threads have said how studies have shown that the effect of testosterone actually causes trans men to offend at similar rates as natal men.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 18:30

Well yes, exactly. I think a 3rd space is vital.

Certainly not an argument for trans men are women, as many of you appear to be arguing.

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 18:32

Certainly not an argument for trans men are women, as many of you appear to be arguing.

For me, as an autistic woman, I find all this very complicated and distressing tbh.

It really, for me personally, is as simple as a woman is a woman and a man is a man. A trans woman is a trans woman and a trans man is a trans man.

The rest is just noise.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 18:32

As a matter of interest - why are violent women housed in the male estate?

Why is there no provision in the female estate?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/10/2018 18:33

It would be interesting. Particularly as posters on other threads have said how studies have shown that the effect of testosterone actually causes trans men to offend at similar rates as natal men

I am here a lot and have never seen anyone say that

linky?

JackyHolyoake · 12/10/2018 18:35

BrownPaperTeddy "Well yes, exactly. I think a 3rd space is vital."

Exactly so .. a wing for MtF and a wing for FtM.

YeTalkShiteHen · 12/10/2018 18:36

As a matter of interest - why are violent women housed in the male estate?

Are they?

placemats · 12/10/2018 18:36

How does a third space directly harm transwomen?

It doesn't.

VickyEadie · 12/10/2018 18:37

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

I wonder how they feel about men with penises being housed with them? Oh, we don't know, do we? because they weren't fucking consulted.

JackyHolyoake · 12/10/2018 18:37

BrownPaperTeddy "As a matter of interest - why are violent women housed in the male estate?

Why is there no provision in the female estate?"

The answer is very simple .. the staff in the male estate are more highly trained to deal with violent inmates.

scepticalwoman · 12/10/2018 18:37

it doesn't matter what women say - we're all wrong / transphobic / uncaring in the eyes of the anti women / centring men in feminism brigade. It's exhausting and as heresyandwitchcraft has so helpfully pointed out:
it's for the males with dysphoria to solve for themselves. Give them their own space and they can decide what to do with "true trans," "fake trans," Karen White and Ian Huntley. None of them are female so none of them should be allowed in the female space. It's a blanket NO. NO to every male

So away with all your tedious 'whataboutery'. Women say no. We have our boundaries and they do not include sharing anything with strangers with a penis. Go and find your own solutions for the problems that you have created.
NO NO NO

placemats · 12/10/2018 18:37

As a matter of interest - why are violent women housed in the male estate?

There are no violent women as yet housed in the male estate.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 18:38

They are, I believe, but in isolation, because there are no category A women's prisons.

If self-ID goes through I suppose society may have to build a specialist cat A women sex offenders' prison. Which would be quite amusing. Transition a la Karen White hoping for a pool of captive victims, find yourself banged up with a load of other be-penised wannabe Karens.

JackyHolyoake · 12/10/2018 18:38

One also needs to bear in mind that there are plans in progress to ensure that women [adult females] are not incarcerated in future except for the most serious of crimes.

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 18:39

YeTalkShiteHen

I just don't think it is as simple as that though.

It's simple if your aim is to prevent trans women from accessing female spaces. But if the aim is to create systems that work then I think it is more subtle than that.

So if we look at the argument that vulnerable women would be affected by having to share their space with a trans woman (male bodied person) which I don't disagree with tbh surely they will also be affected by sharing the space with a person that appears to be male ie facial hair, deep voice, mannerisms etc but is actually a trans man (so born female)?

For me this is a big flaw in the argument. If you succeed in banning trans women from female spaces then trans men will be included in female spaces and I don't see how that accommodates vulnerable women.

placemats · 12/10/2018 18:41

Johanna Dennehy is in a female estate. She is a serial killer of males.

She is a violent person. Perhaps she should be put into the male estate?

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 18:42

I wonder how they feel about men with penises being housed with them? Oh, we don't know, do we? because they weren't fucking consulted.

Sorry, I thought this was the main thrust of the argument? That vulnerable women prisoners would be affected by male bodied people in cells with them?