Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

[Freespeecher]

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

I notice there are no deletions on this thread. Why hasn't Caligula been reporting all the rampant transphobia on this thread, after all they were saying yesterday how transphobic FWR is compared to AIBU.

Because there is no rampant transphobia

I actually feel a bit sorry for Cal

first of all she actually had the ovaries to stick around for a debate, so kudos there.

she came over as someone with a dog in the race - she is close to transwomen that she wants to protect

so here she is on Mumsnet, defending an absolutely indefensible position - namely some people, on the proviso that they say they are women and haven't be been convicted of rape yet should be placed in female prisons

She came across as pretty smart. the arguments against are cast iron. she must be expending a lot of mental energy to keep believing what she believes

but when you start buying into the idea that people can change sex that's where you end up

when people try to make others pretend something that just isn't true, that's where you end up

Lang I did ask that poster to define extreme feminism, but they didn't get round to answering. Maybe Ricky Gervais is now an extreme feminist.

That’s where you end up if you try to argue.

That’s why TRAs don’t engage in argument, they cry transphobia and shut down discussion by calling you a bigot.

oh yes, it's the reason behind no debate for sure

but from where I am, she's being gaslighted by someone in her life that she cares about

I expect she doesn't see it that way and is in fact grossly offended by the suggestion, but that's what I see

That’s why TRAs don’t engage in argument, they cry transphobia and shut down discussion by calling you a bigot

Aye, because they have no reasonable or factual argument. Much easier to bawl and shout and intimidate and threaten.

It was actually incredibly liberating when I was able to say to myself

transwomen are men
transmen are women

they may wish otherwise but i don't have to get involved in their mind games except due to pronoun enforcement on mumsnet

It does not harm a transwoman to put them in a third space in the prison estate, or provide a third toilet space, or refuse them permission to do smear tests on unwilling female patients, or for them not to compete against women in a sporting competition.

Given the relative numbers of Category A prisoners, the women’s estate would be the ‘third space’ - men’s prisons and transwomen’s prisons being larger by far.

Yes, Bernard - going "the full Germaine" as I like to think of it is immensely liberating, and an instant cure for that nagging chronic headache caused by the cognitive dissonance of trying to hold onto a position which is internally inconsistent.

"tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian"

This is a perfectly defensible position to take. Provision should be made in the male estate for men who have gender dysphoria. It's a psychological condition, like any other.

Would that be easier for your friend? No. But you can't go changing laws on that basis. There are many delicate, sensitive, frightened men for whom prison would be awful. And that absolutely needs addressing. (If nothing else, this issue has made me realise quite how many situations are allowed to perpetuate).

But the answer isn't to sacrifice women in the process. It just isn't. That's a solution that will present far, far more problems than it will resolve.

Quite apart from anything else, criminals lie. Your solution relies on trusting people who have the most to gain by being deceptive.

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

It’s onky ‘throwing transwomen to the wolves’ if you think a third space populated entirely by transwomen is a dangerous place.

More dangerous than the male prisons they currently inhabit, in fact.

Surely that can’t be true? Wouldn’t they be swapping recipes and knitting patterns and posting pictures of their genitals on Instagram and all the other ‘lady things’ women are supposed to do?

Unlike the female estate, which has no category A prisons, the male estate offers a wide range of prisons of differing degrees of openess/severity (Jeffrey Archer, for instance, served his entire sentence in an open prison, which he later said felt a remarkably similar experience to being in boarding school). So it's not the case that the 75 year old death-by-dangerous-driving case would find themselves in the same prison as Karen White.

Absent the existence of category A prisons for women, however, the prison authorities would have no option but to place White with vulnerable women serving sentences for much lesser offences, were he to be placed in the women's estate again.

"tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian"

Apparently her transition didn’t make her a better driver. What gender did her car insurance indicate?

Jeffrey Archer, for instance, served his entire sentence in an open prison, which he later said felt a remarkably similar experience to being in boarding school

I had no idea prison conditions were so grim.

Actually, the causing death by dangerous driving one is an interesting choice, because as we all know, a much celebrated and very famous transwoman "woman of the year" did indeed kill someone while behind the wheel of their car, prior to transitioning IIRC, a fact which appears to have led to no sanctions against them whatsoever. (Admittedly it was in America which has a rather more cavalier attitude to road safety overall).

Aspie . I think that was his slightly tongue-in-cheek point!

But that is my position. Prisons should be sex segregated, full stop. And the male estate should have proper facilities for vulnerable prisoners, including those who are gender non-conforming.

This is my position, too. I also think creating this kind of system would be a good opportunity for policy-makers to also look at how gay males in prison are treated, because they apparently have a really rough time.

they may wish otherwise but i don't have to get involved in their mind games

Yes. This I found incredibly liberating, too. I've spent forever trying to pretend I can find something that will help me agree with these ideological claims, and trying to untangle this knot. But the prison question helped me realize that it's for the males with dysphoria to solve for themselves. Give them their own space and they can decide what to do with "true trans," "fake trans," Karen White and Ian Huntley. None of them are female so none of them should be allowed in the female space. It's a blanket NO. NO to every male.

Why should women being asked to fix a problem that we played no role in creating? I will support alternative solutions, ones that don't erase women, or put women at a disadvantage, or increase women's risk of being harmed. Third spaces seems best, because then trans people can have autonomy over who is allowed to claim the trans identity, services, and facilities. And they can design them to meet trans specific needs (which are very different to female needs).

It is not my responsibility to manage anyone else's feelings or validate their identity, trans or not. I cannot take on the burden of always prioritizing another person's needs, or first consider their every insecurity, or pretend I agree with everything they say.

I have my own beliefs, feelings, and opinions, which are just as valid as everyone else's.

Feminism is for females, and cannot be expected to now also accommodate males.

Women are allowed to put themselves first.

Whatisa good enough reason istheir behaviour, like RAPE, which absolutely means they shouldn't live alongside women, whether you think they're actually a woman or not.

You realise this comment means you are a transphobe right?
Either they are women and treated as women forever more, or they are men. You cannot pick and choose, that's not the stonewall way.

Why should women being asked to fix a problem that we played no role in creating?

This. It’s akin to telling us to change our behaviour/dress to avoid being raped instead of actually telling rapists not to rape. It’s not and shouldn’t be our responsibility.
(I’m not comparing trans women to rapists, I’m saying that they want this, they should fight for it and leave us out of it. In actual fact I think they’d have a lot of support if they did!)

I will support alternative solutions, ones that don't erase women, or put women at a disadvantage, or increase women's risk of being harmed.

This. In big fucking neon flashing letters.

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

Saying no to male people in female spaces isn't throwing anyone to the wolves. It just means that transpeople desire to remove sex segregation doesn't work, therefore another solution needs to be found.

oooh. that post from heresyandwitchcraft has just helped me go full Germain.

None of their stuff is my problem. It really isn't womens' problem to solve.

Wow. How liberating.

I don't understand why you think it's so awful for a 70-year-old transwoman to go to a male prison? There is a vulnerable prisoner unit.

Then the opposite argument must be true - a trans man, who transitioned 20 years ago must, by your logic always be a woman.

Despite many on here, and other threads, stating that the effects of testosterone on trans men makes them as dangerous as natal men.

So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?

That to me makes no sense.

Or do you see trans women and trans men being housed in the male prisons?

In which case you don't believe that people can't change sex.

I’ve stopped even believing in the value of the third space. I now simply don’t think that trans is a thing, a real thing. It’s an umbrella covering a range of things, and dealing with none of these involves the mangling of language and the removal of sex-segraegated spaces.

So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?

In a third-space solution you would establish a trans men's facility. I doubt they'd want to be in with the general male population, anyways.