Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

[Freespeecher]

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

Bingo! I'm out.

Surely women prisoners, many of whom have experienced sexual and domestic abuse in their lives, have a right to be housed without feeling re-traumatised by the presence of men in the prison.

Whether those men perv at them or not. Touch them or not. Say abusive things to them or not. Their very presence makes those very vulnerable women feel unsafe. They shouldnt be in there.

You lost the argument. You know you have.

Anybody who can say- Some transwomen have penises. And? in such a dismissive way the day after Karen White was given a life sentence is absolutely a rape apologist.

How does a third space directly harm transwomen?

You can stand up for the rights of one group of people all you like, but if you start to not care whose expense it comes at you have a problem.

Yes. And I'd say that is exactly what is happening when trans activists insist that it is necessary for a transgirl to use the girls' facilities at school, instead of the separate facilities offered. They didn't care about the feelings of the girls even though the transgirl was being accommodated safely.

I think the onus is on whoever is designing the new system to explain why it would work better than the old one, for ALL involved (not just the individual trans person that you like, but the hard cases involving psychopaths like Ian Huntley).
What are the rules you propose, and how would you enforce them?
What are the safeguards?
How many women would need to feel uncomfortable, unsafe, be violated, or protest before you re-assessed?
The evidence suggests that same sex provisions with a third space for trans people seems like the most elegant solution to me.

Haven't RTFT - will do later. But looking at twitter on gervais tweet - should we go through and reply to those who've said something long the lines of "that is a man" and make them aware of the consultation? Or is that a bad idea for some reason I can't think of right now ?

And what you're proposing directly harms trans women to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women.

That doesn't follow. Heaven forbid anyone should do anything good for actual women! A third space solution does not harm MTF trans people. We can all see the harm of taking women's rights to consent to males in their spaces away.

You lost the argument
I think it's quite amusing that someone would come on a feminist board, defend a policy that allows male bodied people into women's prisons, and then act surprised when some one accuses them of being a rape apologist. I mean, WTF did they expect?

It does not harm a transwoman to put them in a third space in the prison estate, or provide a third toilet space, or refuse them permission to do smear tests on unwilling female patients, or for them not to compete against women in a sporting competition.

None of these things cause any harm to transwomen whatsoever.

However, if each of these things are disregarded women will be and have been harmed.

This is not an equivalence situation. It's the powerful class attempting to stamp all over the scant provision for the less powerful class. All the dressing up in the distracting rags of pretend oppression won't change that.

to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women

Women care more about the physical safety and mental well-being of other women than the unprovable inner gender identity of males shocker.

I know cal has gone, but just for any lurkers

And what you're proposing directly harms trans women to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women

women being raped is not equivalent to men feeling uncomfortable about the fact that they're gender non conforming

I would expect that to be self evident

But won't someone think about our poor sons? Not allowing them to ogle naked women in the shower whenever the fuck they feel like it?

Aye I’m expecting a ban for that comment, but I stand by it.

The poster I called a rape apologist, in response to me saying that their own arguments didn’t exclude Karen White from a women’s prison, said “some trans women have a penis, so?”

If that’s not being a rape apologist I don’t know what is. In the exact context of the conversation up until that point.

Well I said they must be a rape fan, so rape apologist is pretty mild really. And accurate.

But won't someone think about our poor sons?

See I thought I was thinking about my sons, raising them to be decent, respectful and not misogynistic bastards. Can’t believe I’ve been doing it wrong!

Truth hurts.

As half of transwomen prisoners are SEX OFFENDERS then portraying trans prisoners as though the sex offenders are a tiny minority’s of the whole is disingenuous at best.
We have sex segregation for a reason, and that reason hasn’t changed. We need to keep women’s prisons for women and only women.

My iPad added the misplaced apostrophe, apologies.

Surely defending placing be-penised rapists in with a group of literally captive highly vulnerable women goes way beyond apologise. I'd go for "accessory" myself.

@enrichedatthegulags, I don't know Twitter too well, but I'd have thought it's better to say "Stonewall says anyone who says they're a woman is one, so Karen is. Many of us think they've got this wrong and we're saying so in the government consultation here".

"tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian"

But that is my position. Prisons should be sex segregated, full stop. And the male estate should have proper facilities for vulnerable prisoners, including those who are gender non-conforming.

I say the same to extreme TRAs as I do to extreme feminists.

Please provide some links where you have spent an equivalent amount of time remonstrating with extreme TRAs. I'd be very interested to read your conversations with them. Where are they? Twitter? Reddit? Any TRA fora? Do let me know.