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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I’m thinking of applying for an opportunity on the basis of being non-binary

268 replies

Somerville1234 · 09/10/2018 09:32

Don’t want to say too much about the reward on offer - a work thing, with real kudos, let’s leave it there.

But... it’s only open to people who self-identify as transgender or non-binary (or a lot of other words which, having Googled, are synonyms for the same).

Some people don't identify with any gender is one of the descriptors of what non-binary means. And that’s true of me. I don’t identify as female, I just happen to have a female body. I do “present in a feminine way” though. And I’m straight, married, still breastfeeding...

But, I can apply, right? I’m nervous, but fucked off with myself for cowering behind the parapet for this long.

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 09/10/2018 09:57

I've decided if anyone ever asks me, to say I identify as agender.
I don't give a stuff about pronouns, so that's not an issue, and according to wikipedia using they/their pronouns is not a prerequisite for identifying as agender (!).
If anyone challenges you, then just say 'I can't believe you are denying my identity.'
If anyone raises an eyebrow at your outfit being too 'conforming', just say 'I can't believe you think gender expression is analogous to gender identity.'
Good luck with the application!

OldCrone · 09/10/2018 09:58

Could any of them even give a sensible definition of what non-binary means?
Can anyone? Is there a sensible definition of non-binary?

howlsmovingcastle84 · 09/10/2018 09:58

Stonewall's definition of non-binary:
Non-binary

An umbrella term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’. Non-binary identities are varied and can include people who identify with some aspects of binary identities, while others reject them entirely.

Sounds fine to me if you meet the above!

QuaterMiss · 09/10/2018 09:59

Oh my!

Revelation.

Why didn’t I think of this before?

I would absolutely do this myself - if only it stopped at the label. Fireperson, say. Or Postperson. Or Engineer. Unfortunately my own occupation would demand that I vociferously expressed my new-found identity in my work. Which would be tedious.

Otherwise ...

Original poster
Somerville1234 · 09/10/2018 09:59

BTW, the opportunity/reward has nothing to do with being trans/NB. It’s not, like, an application to become the representative of those people. It’s a general reward that would be good for anyone in the field. So the “application” is all merit based, and paper-based, and apparently “blind” - no names on anything. It’s only if I were short-listed that I would be named/interviewed.

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 09/10/2018 10:00

ughhh if someone is not binary, i.e happily conforming with gender stereotypes, then they are by definition 'non-binary' and maybe 'genderqueer' or 'agender'.
Many of us who post on this forum are covered by the trans umbrella, contrary to popular expectation.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/10/2018 10:04

Explanation of what 'transgender' means c&p'd from a Stonewall document (my bolding):

^The term transgender also includes people who express gender characteristics that don’t correspond with the characteristics traditionally ascribed to the person’s actual or presumed sex. This can include:
• Gender benders • Gender blenders • Drag queens • Drag kings • Butch women
• Effeminate men • Anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender
In the broadest sense, transgender encompasses anyone whose identity or behaviour falls outside of stereotypical gender norms. That includes people who do not self-identify as transgender, but who are perceived as such by others and thus are subject to the same prejudice, discrimination and physical violence as those who actually identify with any of these categories.^

The behaviour of many GC women frequently falls outside 'stereotypical gender norms' IME.

ughhhh · 09/10/2018 10:05

@Ihaventgottimeforthis if so many people on here fall under the trans umbrella then how are so many people SO transphobic and no one has anything to say about it? 🤔

beenandgoneandbackagain · 09/10/2018 10:06

I have never been asked my preferred pronoun, but I think that if I am, I shall use "It".

"It" perfectly demonstrates the ludicrosity of such things and the ultimate dehumanisation such things eventually lead to.

Original poster
Somerville1234 · 09/10/2018 10:06

Oh wow, Errol, so I am transgender too! Every day is a learning day.

Now to get DH’s blessing. (We’re in the same field so there wouldn’t just be potential block back on me, with this.)

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 09/10/2018 10:07

Where is this transphobia uuugh
?

AornisHades · 09/10/2018 10:07

I'd easily fall under the Stonewall definition. As long as you have your 'qualifications' clear in your own mind then why not apply? Who's to judge your inner feeling?

beenandgoneandbackagain · 09/10/2018 10:08

There is no transphobia on mumsnet. Transphobic posts are not allowed and there is very heavy moderation of the FWR forum.

Many of us would qualify as trans/non-binary/queer using Stonewall's very own definition so accusations that we are not what we identify as are . . . . .transphobic.

Please back up your accusations of mumsnet transphobia with proof.

howlsmovingcastle84 · 09/10/2018 10:08

From Sophie Walker's recent tweet...

"It's also worth noting that many women (myself included) consider themselves non-binary in that we reject gendered constructs"

BeUpStanding · 09/10/2018 10:08

Do it! Do it! Do it!

HomeStar · 09/10/2018 10:08

@ if so many people on here fall under the trans umbrella then how are so many people SO transphobic

This made me snort-laugh. What a way to spectacularly miss the point.

BrownPaperTeddy · 09/10/2018 10:09

I think that this is the way to shine the spotlight on the nonsense that is self ID.

For the record, and I know most don't agree with me, I have no issue with accepting anyone that is formally recognised as being trans. By that I mean that I think there needs to be a formal process that ensures that the person is serious. The fact that under self ID anyone and everyone could change their identity at will and 10 times before lunch is just bizarre.

If it is adopted I absolutely will be using it to my advantage whenever I can just to highlight the ridiculousness of it. But then I am bloody minded and I accept that not everyone is the same.

By doing what the OP is suggesting I think the problem is being highlighted but without attacking any particular group or risking accusations of transphobia.

jellyfrizz · 09/10/2018 10:09

so when an athletic trans woman wants to participate in the olympics it's the 'end of women's sports' and they're 'invading women's spaces' but when you want to participate in something that's only for trans people you can go and there's nothing wrong with it despite you don't feel gender dysphoria or feel any dissonance with the sex you were born as

But every feminist feels gender dysphoria - otherwise we'd be completely accepting of our lot in life as females.

SonEtLumiere · 09/10/2018 10:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

placemats · 09/10/2018 10:12

Do it!

In the next census I'm putting myself down as male.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 09/10/2018 10:13

ughhh if you see any transphobia please do report it.
What we discuss on this board is mostly related to maintaining the sex-based provisions of women and girls, whilst maintaining that people who identify as trans should of course have all the human rights that they are entitled to, whether male or female.
I'm sure there is a degree of phobia/hate/disgust expressed on these boards - this is the world wide web after all, and users will hold the full spectrum of views - but they are in a minority.
We fight for sex-based protection and freedom from oppression, particularly of male violence and gender stereotyping.

jellyfrizz · 09/10/2018 10:14

if so many people on here fall under the trans umbrella then how are so many people SO transphobic

Different trans people have different biological needs however they identify.

It is not transphobic to recognise this surely?

Womaningreen · 09/10/2018 10:14

you can be non binary

as far as I'm concerned, they are applying non binary to gender, which doesn't exist, so everyone's non binary.

just to say, I applied for something that had this kind of criteria but also included being from an ethnic minority. So I applied on that basis - it was a free training thing - but in the end, I pulled out because I couldn't bear the thought of the sorts of people who might have been on it.

Every word of my application - I mean the stuff I feel about myself - was a lie. It didn't take long to do it, chuck down some contemporary word salad etc - but in the end I just thought, this is using my free time in the company of people I'll probably hate!

WhoGivesADamnForAFlakeyBandit · 09/10/2018 10:17

If Pips Bunce can throw a dress on 2 days a week still get a man's wage while winning awards for women - why can't you wear some trousers with some nice comfy shoes and identify as whatever you want to win this prize?

gendercritter · 09/10/2018 10:17

You don't happen to have any blue hair dye sitting at the back of your cupboard do you? Grin

I say go for it! There is no-one alive who can tell you you're not non-binary given the only way of being enby is to self-identify into that category.

I'm enby too, by the way, so solidarity sister (?!). I'm feeling very angry about Brett Kavanaugh at present. Anger definitely isn't a female emotion which is how I know I'm definitely enby. I'm also not wearing any make-up today. Tomorrow I might be male because I'm thinking of wearing trousers so it's lucky I read this post today

(And apologies for not replying to your pm about CBC - the system hasn't been letting me send any for some reason. I tried a few times)