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Aggressive Feminism Boards

999 replies

PerverseConverse · 07/10/2018 09:38

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

OP posts:
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waterlego6064 · 07/10/2018 19:46

BrownPaperTeddy

I see you were wanting clarification on my post. The discussion has probably moved on now but, yes, I would expect biological females to have some or all of those features (or to have had them in the past).

I believe that science says that if a person has XX chromosomes, they are female, regardless of which other bits they do or don’t have.

I don’t know enough about intersex conditions to comment on those much (and at any rate, do not wish to hurt any intersex people who may be reading), but it is my understanding that intersex people are still one sex or the other- just with abnormalities in the development of sex characteristics. What sex an intersex person is or considers themselves to be is none of my business, and not something I have a right to comment or speculate on.

The fact remains that a person who produces sperm- or who has the relevant equipment to hypothetically produce sperm, is not female. A person who produces eggs (or who has some of the biological mechanisms/parts required to make eggs) is female.

I’ve thought about your hypothetical example of whether someone who has (or had) only one of the characteristics on that list is female. I honestly don’t know. (Apart from chromosomes as above). If a person had one of those characteristics and not the others, I would make a guess that they are either intersex (in which case their biological sex is their own business, not mine to comment or speculate on), or a woman who has had a lot of surgery. I can’t really think of any other situations where this would apply.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:47

I have seen some posters asked one question over and over though. But this tends to be, what is your definition of woman/transwoman.

And that is exactly it. That has happened either here or on the thread this morning (sorry can't remember). Whichever it was it doesn't matter because it wasn't relevant to what we were discussing.

There is no need for it.

It's like me starting a thread on should I buy a blue coat or a green coat and then pages of demanding me to define " what is a dog".

Totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Earlywalker · 07/10/2018 19:49

I went back to the last thread I dared to question to screenshot a specific comment I received to find it was deleted, so I thought I’d post the next comment along instead. This is an example of the attitude that you get if you question anything, so please don’t say it doesn’t happen. I’ve blanked the posters name out just purely because I don’t want to single them out.

Aggressive Feminism Boards
Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:49

Yeah, that's not the issue. It's some (not all) transphobia putting people off.

It was a direct response to a point about standing up for women's rights and speaking for other women. Which was relevant. Unlike your little jibe. Do keep up.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 07/10/2018 19:49

It really isn't reasonable to criticise the lack of threads that you aren't prepared to start

Yup

PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:50

I don't feel that I can contribute to posts concentrated on trans issues. As that seems to be all there is I don't see a place for me in the feminism board.

I understand that. Thats absolutely fair enough.

However, if you started threads on other stuff, you could contribute?

I do think sometimes there are a lot of trans threads, but many members are concerned about many aspects of transactivism. But if you want to talk about other stuff, start a thread on it and see how it goes?

Theres a place for everyone on these boards, tbh. Just avoid the trans threads, and start your own?

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:51

This is an example of the attitude that you get if you question anything, so please don’t say it doesn’t happen. I’ve blanked the posters name out just purely because I don’t want to single them out.

That's not calling anyone on the thread one though is it? Stop tone policing people's speech. That is a hypothetical situation. It's a comment on how extreme TRAs are.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2018 19:52

Waterlego A woman or girl has XX hormones, men or boys have X and Y
That is the fundamental definition

The formation of genitals or internal organs can sometimes be lacking, but the XX chromosones for a woman are always there

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:52

waterlego

Thanks for coming back. My issue with your definition is that it doesn't just exclude those that are born intersex, nor women that have had surgery.

Some people will be born with some organs missing. Just as babies may have limbs missing, only 1 kidney, one side of heart missing and so on.

It's not as easy as giving a list of organs and saying those without these aren't women.

That was what a PP was saying. Her sister was born without a uterus. What is she also had no ovaries. Is she not a female?

PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:53

I went back to the last thread I dared to question to screenshot a specific comment I received to find it was deleted, so I thought I’d post the next comment along instead. This is an example of the attitude that you get if you question anything, so please don’t say it doesn’t happen. I’ve blanked the posters name out just purely because I don’t want to single them out.

While of course that seems a harsh reply (but again, its one person, not FWR), it appears to be in reply to you saying posters are anti-trans rather than caring about women. So..you started it? Yeah tit for tat is no good, however you cannot complain aabout someone replying calling you a handmaiden when they were replying to you calling them transphobic! The insults should really, stop, but this is from both sides.

VerbeenaBeeks · 07/10/2018 19:53

There's a certain poster on here doing a sterling job of showing exactly what the problem is.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:54

It's like me starting a thread on should I buy a blue coat or a green coat and then pages of demanding me to define " what is a dog".

Totally irrelevant to the discussion.

This thread is about people complaining about transphobia and not feeling comfortable expressing pro trans views. Of course it's relevant.

AyeRobot · 07/10/2018 19:55

FWR is not a magazine, it's user generated content. Whenever these complaints about the board crop up (as they have for years) from feminists who say they can't discuss what they want to discuss and seemingly many also agree, it is always suggested that the complainants start threads on topics they wish to discuss. We're (almost) all feminists, aren't we? Surely there are points of commonality? And if so many agree with the complainants, there will be plenty of positive posts.

Or, is it as I said earlier, a difference in posting preference so the seeking of common areas is not actually of interest? That's not a dig, I just don't get it.

There's always the Human Rights board for the equalists, if that's a better fit?

PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:55

*The insults should really stop(IMO), but this is from both sides.

I missed out the IMO. Tone policing is not my thing tbh. I wouldn't criticize a woman for however she wants to put her views across. However, it really is unbelievable to expect comments such as that to just be accepted rather than challenged. I think this is part of the problem tbh, posters expect to just be able to accuse people of being transphobic and not actually carting about womens rights, without any comeback from feminists. Bizarre.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:58

I read that comment as not insulting any particular person, just expressing frustration that very little satisfies TRAs and that they expect total capitulation.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:58

Ereshkigal

I read the OP as asking why are people saying that this board is too aggressive.

It wasn't discussing trans issues.

That's why I see demands for definitions irrelevant. We were talking about how people are treated when offering an opposing argument. The actual argument didn't need opening up again.

pennydrew · 07/10/2018 19:59

BrownPaperTeddy

35 pages of comments doesn’t really sound like you’re staying away because you don’t like how you’re treated. Pretty much sounds exactly like when I left the conversation. Basically a small few repeatedly complaining about the same things: women here ‘bullying’ others by not responding to demands to change tone and language, and now even what is discussed, and it’s so bad you stay away and are too afraid to post anything... despite commenting all day... but you don’t want to start a different topic yourself, you want others to post so you can join in... other women should instinctly know what issues you think are worthwhile and should know how much they can discuss self ID without over stepping and putting people off.

😐

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2018 19:59

I agree there are a lot of trans threads, so I've never to date felt the need to start my own

I've started these threads recently:
on the Nobel physics prize, on a rape victim and her mum sentenced to prison for having the rapist's foetus aborted, on the rape of a 2-week-old baby

They all got responses and I had the debates I wanted to share and clarify my own opinions, partly to vent my rage.
So it's not that FWR has shut up shop except for trans.

I've had good response to earlier threads I've started too
If you start non-trans threads, you can have good debates

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:59

From the OP:

^And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.^

waterlego6064 · 07/10/2018 20:00

Yes, that's more or less what I was trying to say! Bigchoc!

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 20:01

The actual argument didn't need opening up again.

It did, because whether thinking MTFs are not women is "transphobia" depends on that.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 20:01

posters expect to just be able to accuse people of being transphobic and not actually carting about womens rights, without any comeback from feminists. Bizarre.

Why do you assume that anyone was calked transphobic though?

I was calked man, and the rest, without once calling anyone transphobic. They just decided that a woman couldn't hold my views and so therefore I was a man.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 20:02

Not everything is about you.

waterlego6064 · 07/10/2018 20:02

Her sister was born without a uterus. What is she also had no ovaries. Is she not a female?

If she had XX chromosomes (and perhaps a vagina, clitoris, vulva, you know- female anatomy), then of course she would be female.

Apologies to PP’s sister for using her situation as an example! 😕

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 20:03

Women have been called transphobic on this thread as we are on most other trans threads at some point.

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