Aggressive Feminism Boards

[PerverseConverse]

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

What I find interesting is people saying'I don't agree with self ID either"

But then expending a lot of effort talking to people you are basically agreeing with about how wrong they are to feel a bit more strongly about it that you do.

You can't tell me how I feel about something, to what degree I should be upset about it, what I believe and what I do about it.

I can only assume that the people (usually men) that critisise Mumsnet haven't been over to Twitter and seen the vile and disgusting way women are treated. Mumsnet is nirvana in comparison.

I don't really care tbh, what others say or how many times they go out of their way say it. They're entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to think it's bollox. Free speech and all that jazz.
I don't waste my time on those threads. If you're new to the subject it could seem important to try to convince people otherwise, but you won't succeed. And that's okay.
All of these fluttery eyelashes 'Oh please help little old me hide the feminism boards' posts are a direct response to the overwhelming 'Why do you use MN' thread.
And that's okay

I understand part of what you’re saying op
I was recently accused of ‘putting women down’ in a thread where I was doing exactly the opposite. My crime was expressing an opinion that wasn’t the group think.
It’s very stinging considering how much I actually dedicate myself in real life to woman’s causes.
But robust debate does step on feelings at times 🤷‍♀️ People can feel very passionate about things and can express it in differing ways.
I would have intelligent, impassioned debate over the alternative any day.
If that means we get our toes stepped on occasionally- so be it!!

What I am opposed to is being told my reality is a delusion,

Who told you that, and in response to what?

They say that self ID poses no threat then when presented with real life examples of men abusing it

I've seen many, many posters say that they have great concerns around self ID (myself included) but they cannot post on these boards and are now hiding them.

I've seen threads where posters have said what their definition of a woman is but that hasn't been enough for some posters. That's when the name calling started and then the final act of dismissal -"you're a man".

It's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about self ID and the loophole that it creates for abuse, whilst still believing in inclusion for trans men and women.

I don't think that self ID is helping anyone. To me it seems totally unworkable and has only served to encourage fear and hatred. But my criticism is aimed at the law makers rather than trans men and women.

To me it just boil down to you being uncomfortable with how assertive I am. Which is really your problem. I do get it. I used to not be assertive. I used to think that assertiveness was aggression. But then I realised men don't think twice about those things, and I realised that I've been socialised to put other people's needs above my own.

There are many feminists who think self-id is not the single biggest issue facing women these days. We're not brainwashed, trolls or men. We just think there are other issues that are either as urgent or more urgent.

Most posters on fwr understand and respect that but a vocal few definitely don't.

What is your definition of woman?

I agree, and I don’t understand how our perceptions are so different; where I see robust and challenging debate*, they see aggression.

*Now and then, I do see posts that cross a line (from both sides of the debate), but they are always reported and always deleted.

It is not shutting down, to answer with facts

However, some people live in a bubble, only experiencing views that agree with theirs - this can be religion / party politics / Brexit / trans / ....

When such people see a post not agreeing with their deeply held beliefs,
some are flexible enough to take on board new facts;
Some others can accept that people can be perfectly decent human beings, but have different views on important topics.

Those who are offended by FWR seem to think that everyone who doesn't agree with the magical TWAW is by definition transphobic and commiting actual violence.

Somehow the threats of rape, stabbing, burning, bombs by TRAs are of no importance,
nor the actual physical assaults on feminists in public,
or doxing to bully and intimidate them.

Ooooh, loads more posts have appeared since I write that. Apologies if now irrelevant.

There was a poster came on the other day to explain queer theory. Heterosexual men can identify as 'queer' if they are emotional, if they feel and express emotions.

I think that feeling and expressing emotions is normal human behaviour, and that its trolling men to call them 'gay' or 'queer' if they feel emotions.

If you choose to believe that women can have a penis thats your choice. Just stop trying to enforce that delusion on the rest of us.

Sister

That's fine. Start your own threads about things that are important to you.

Hmm BrownPaperTeddy

I’m not saying that this isn’t your experience of the board but it certainly isn’t mine. Individual posters have disagreements. But that’s all it is. For democray to thrive there needs to be frank and open exchange if views. That sometimes gets a bit heated.

However, we know this board attracts people who are trying to troll/manufacture evidence/abuse feminists. So it makes people extra wary.

Maybe there she be a pinned newbie thread for those who want to catch up with the main debates.

All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments

Well you would, wouldn't you if you're in agreement with the majority and you're all back slapping each other and encouraging?
Try disagreeing on here and going against the grain. You'll see how quickly you get called a bloke or a TRA and/or a goady fucker.
The thread the other day was enlightening and refreshing on the main boards that asked how you hid boards (OP never said which in her original post) as so many more liberal people non hardline came out and said how they felt driven away and bullied off.)
There's a lot more out there but they can't freely post on here without being called a man or a sealion or whatever.

OP and @ChrysanthemumsAreMums

Absolutely you both did. That was a really interesting discussion that we had and that thread was very civil and people respected the views of others.

That is the only thread where that has happened though.

Yes, it must be because we're not assertive: meek, dim handmaidens we. Trust me, I'm plenty assertive (in real life I am often criticised for being too assertive, dontcha just love being a woman) I just don't want to waste my time or yours and I can see why others don't either.

I saw a thread here the other day asking how to get the message through to handmaidens. Some of the posts on this thread give you a perfect example of what not to say if you want to bring people round to your way of thinking.

Still not got that definition of 'woman' have you Verbeena?

Oh yes, I forgot, there is 'no point' in giving us one......

If someone be couid explain why we should centre feminism around penis owners then maybe we could move the debate forward.

Whilst we're at it could we also have the definition of women with out using biological facts. That would be grand.

I've seen threads where posters have said what their definition of a woman is but that hasn't been enough for some posters.

If it's anything other than "adult human female" it won't be enough for 99% of the population, male and female.

Why would anyone think that posters on a board that is mostly frequented by women should be open to the idea that 'woman means anyone who identifies as a woman'? Of course that idea will be argued against, because it's making my identity meaningless in order for men to co-op it.

I've seen many, many posters say that they have great concerns around self ID (myself included) but they cannot post on these boards and are now hiding them

Include me in that, I originally started off on here concerned about self ID.
Grateful for the one prolific poster I saw who said "I have a problem with them all" as it showed brightly the problems with this board that people refuse to see.

Still not got that definition of 'woman' have you Verbeena?

I rest my case, lol.

The thing is, when someone comes on here and calls me a transphobe, but cannot answer basic questions such as:

What is a woman?
What is a transwoman?
Is there any need to have a workable definition of the sexes, given that women's oppression is based upon their biological sex?

Then yes, I may imply that the calibre of their debate isn't very good.

If you're uncomfortable with women centring women, don't bother with the feminist board.

Simples.