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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Aggressive Feminism Boards

999 replies

PerverseConverse · 07/10/2018 09:38

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

OP posts:
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Elephantinacravat · 07/10/2018 19:24

Seriously? Post from a more liberal stand as an OP or say you're inclusive of transwomen. Just see what happens.

Yes, you will be asked what criteria you use for 'transwoman' which means they can be included in the definition of woman.

Outrageous isn't it.......... Hmm

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:24

Maybe stop pointlessly banging on about them then.

Let me just quote your words back at you

please don't tell me what I should do.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:25

A lot of women thought the Suffragettes went too far and were a pain in the arse. Lucky you can vote and own property though, isn't it?

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:26

please don't tell me what I should do.

Why are you banging on about it then? What are you hoping to achieve by scolding women on a board you don't post on?

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:26

I'm not speaking for you personally. I'm speaking for women's rights.

Then you need to make it clear that you don't speak for all women.

I don't want what you are asking for.

VerbeenaBeeks · 07/10/2018 19:27

Saying 'no' to males in female spaces. That doesn't mean you are saying no to there being any transwomen, it means you are saying 'no' to males in female spaces

Thanks, that's from you though and glad to know that it's different to what the other poster sounded like. Who still hasn't clarified.
It's very dog whistle though, isn't it?If it comes back and says yes, that's what I meant, reminds me of the Katie Hopkins final solution tweet thing that was on Twitter.
As in didn't mean, that at all, don't be silly, I meant something else. That's how it comes across.

PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:27

you're not "allowed" to say you feel like a woman.
You get dismissed. Not the right answer. Apparently.

Of course you can say you 'feel like' a woman. However it must also be acknowledged that many many other women do not 'feel like' women, they just feel like them and they ARE women, by being adult human females. Woman is not a feeling, its a reality. You are free to feel like whatever you want, but feeling like something doesn't make you it. I wish feeling like something made you it. I would feel like Angelina Jolie tbh. If we just go on which sex people 'feel like', then people like me do not exist at all!

I don't find the feminist boards aggressive at all. It was a bit of a shock when I first came here to see women stating their views so forcefully mind, but this was because I am used to women..toning themselves down as to appear 'nice'. The time for nice is over, to be quite honest. Being nice led us to the shitshow we have today, where thousands upon thousands of people with penises are declaring themselves to be women and demanding access to women only areas. Meanwhile, something like 5000 genuine transsexual people exist, but we are being asked to extend the courtesy we give to transsexual people to 500k other 'trans' people, some of whom change nothing at all about themselves, are proud of their penises and pressure lesbians to shag them because 'transphobia'.

Transphobia is such a useless word these days, because of TRAs, and many libfems, who seem to think that discussing the biological reality of women is transphobic, as is criticizing any aspect of the transactivist narrative.

From reading this thread, it appears some users have been called men and find this to be an insult. Don't worry, I would find being called a man an insult myself, as speaking broadly, men have absolutely no clue about feminism and give not a shit about women, and a whole bunch of them actively abuse women. With NAMALT disclaimer obviously. Transactivists are no different. They are generally males who simply hate women, while claiming to be us. Transactivists are extremely similar to MRAs, I think there is huge crossover between the two, and many of those calling themselves transactivists today are simply MRAs who have found another way to attack women. Except this time they get to appear 'woke' while abusing women and telling them to shut the fuck up, and they have thousands of lefty dudebros lined up who are willing to agree with them and also abuse women and dehumanize them with 'terf' and such, generally followed by various threats of violence. How progressive!

Meanwhile these very same transactivists declare people who actually have dysphoria as 'truscum' and abuse them also. Yet they claim to be fighting for them.

Sorry for the large post about trans stuff. However I get that this thread started off being about how 'aggressive' FWR is but its clear from the main complainants that the real issue is the trans thing, as per usual.

So I don't find FWR aggressive at all. And I have massive massive differences of opinion with many members on here. I have had disagreements about abortion (in short, pro-choice but I don't think abortion should be available up to term..and it seems many members do and think my opinion means I am not actually pro-choice), I have had disagreements about various aspects of the trans debate, I have had disagreements about male violence, and pretty much any feminist topic you can think of. But disagreements are part of a discussion forum. I find it utterly hilarious that some claim that everyone agrees on here, that its an echo chamber and so on. We are not a hive mind. Which is something that should definitely be remembered when the whole of FWR is being blamed for a few members doing something some members disagree with. FWR is on the whole respectful, and certainly not transphobic. I have seen some dreadful transphobic threads posted before, really horrible stuff. It was deleted really quickly, which proves FWR members actually reported it. Some of such threads were deleted within seconds of being posted, however oddly enough, those who screenshot for twitter manage to catch EVERY single one of these threads before their fast deletion. Oh, and the members who posted the transphobic threads have absolutely 0 posting history. Which says to me, that those screenshoting each of these threads, were the very same people who posted them.

FWR is a robust place, of course it is given the topics we discuss. But many people disagreeing with you is not a 'pile on', its just something that happens sometimes.

As someone pointed out too, not too long ago, GC voices were rare in this section, and near everyone would disagree with posters who posted GC stuff. The GC posters did not declare that it was an echo chamber, and that everyone piled on them and them refuse to even discuss stuff and moan in other areas of the forum about how horrible the FWR posters were and how their views are shouted down, then hide FWR. They stuck with it, kept arguing their point (as it was important to them), and then slowly, others started coming round to the view too. Yes now FWR is mainly GC, but it was not always that way. And I understand that there are a lot of trans threads here, however self ID is an imminent threat to womens rights, possibly the largest there has ever been as if we lose the ability to describe ourselves, if the word woman is meaningless, womens rights are gone. Those who disagree, well, they never even seem to be able to come up with a definition of woman. Women are women, and transwomen are transwomen. Cis is sexist bollocks, and FWR is welcoming, on the whole. We have some passionate women, who have overcame their female socialization and will argue their case just as forcefully as a man would, this is an amazing thing IMO! I am still attempting to get to that stage myself, to overcome the need to preface everything I say with 'I am sorry if this comes across forceful' and stuff. Just don't expect anti-woman views to get much traction, and if you disagree with the majority, then yes, a few people may reply to you at once. This is not a pile on or anyone trying to shout you down, this is a utterly normal thing on a forum with so many members. Just..pick a few of the replies to reply to? Rather than running away saying that people all piled on. Its not hard. As I say, I disagree with large amounts of people and have had like 20/30 replies disagreeing with me in a short space of time, obviously you cannot reply to every one of those people so I just like, pick one or two and reply directly to them, then address kind of the whole thread too.

As for the complaints about people being called TRAs/MRAs..I am sorry it has happened to people who are not TRA/MRAs, but for you to be called that you must have came across that way, using TRA/MRA talking points. Maybe we should stop calling out MRAs. However the likes of our constant midnight visitors are clearly MRAs. As are a fair few other posters, like the ones who will join and make a thread about how nasty feminists are, and not all men...women do it too, people commit violence, loads of false rape claims, men suffer more domestic abuse than women do, why are you scared of penises, etc etc...well those people I will continue to call out as obvious MRAs. I don't personally use MRA/TRA to anyone unless I am sure thats what they are. But I am not here to tone police other women like some seem to want to do.

This post was WAY longer that I meant it to be. But TL;DR, despite disagreeing on many topics, I don't find FWR aggressive at all. I would say that the majority of people who feel that way have expressed anti woman views on here at one stage or another and had their arse handed to them. Not ALL people who feel that way of course. But the likes of the TRAs who claim we are all vipers and unwelcoming, fuck yeah we are unwelcoming to those who don't give a shit about womens rights and actively want to erode them. As for the echo chamber accusations, IMO those are also bollocks as we disagree with each other all the time. The only thing we seem to actually agree on is that self ID poses huge risks to women and girls. Something TRAs keep claiming is not the case and it won't affect us, and it will not affect anything much really at all. if that was the case, then why are you fighting so aggressively for it? Why the need to lie to schools and the likes about how self ID is already law, and get them to think single sex areas are already illegal? Hmm.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:28

Thanks, that's from you though and glad to know that it's different to what the other poster sounded like. Who still hasn't clarified.

It's exactly what I meant. What do you think "boundaries" means?

Super disingenuous.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:28

Why are you banging on about it then? What are you hoping to achieve by scolding women on a board you don't post on?

Only reflecting back to you what you are doing to me.

You told me not to tell you what to do and then proceeded to tell me what to do.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:30

What are you hoping to achieve by scolding women on a board you don't post on?

Really quite a simple question. Not much scope for misunderstanding.

PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:30

Seriously? Post from a more liberal stand as an OP or say you're inclusive of transwomen. Just see what happens.

I would say what would happen there, is people would ask you firstly what your definition of transwoman is. And then what you mean by inclusive, like, which areas of life do you mean. And if you could not answer either of these, its very likely your post would be dismissed as..not making any sense. As 'transwoman' can be anything from a post operative transsexual to a plain as day man who just says the magic words 'I am a woman'.

PerverseConverse · 07/10/2018 19:31

Wow, I've been out since midday and without an internet connection and come back to 800+ comments. A quick scan shows the same "I've been put off the feminism board because they are all so mean" posters STILL arguing with the names I've come to think of as regulars-those with lots of knowledge who present a very intelligent, informed point of view that is based on evidence based research, biology, and statistics.
I'll catch up soon but I bet nothing has actually moved on since this morning Confused

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2018 19:31

If "inclusive" means pronouns and campaigning for a 4th space so transwomen don't have to go in single sex men's spaces, I'm inclusive
Except I'll never use "she" for a rapist or paedophile

If "liberal" is accepting selfID and giving up single sex spaces, then I'll never be liberal

It's like LibDems or Tories complaining on the Politics board that it's always Labour posting.
Noone has a right to censor what other women want to debate
If you don't put in the work to create your own threads and don't want to use the board, it seems very contrary to complain about those who are active

I thought this thread was about you receiving insults and I agree that should not happen
We must be reasonably respectful to each other

However, if your real complaint is that we keep debating a topic you'd rather we just gave up on, that's not going to happen.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:32

However, if your real complaint is that we keep debating a topic you'd rather we just gave up on, that's not going to happen.

I have a hunch that it is. Call me cynical.

Elephantinacravat · 07/10/2018 19:33

you're not "allowed" to say you feel like a woman.
You get dismissed. Not the right answer. Apparently.

Of course you are 'allowed' to say that. You can say what you like. But that only applies to you. Given there are many, many who don't 'feel like a woman' on the inside, it can't really be used in any sort of meaningful way as a definition of what it is to be a woman. I don't feel like a woman, I just know I am one.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 19:34

Then you need to make it clear that you don't speak for all women.

No I don't. I'm not speaking for individual women, I'm standing up for women's rights as a sex class. I'll express myself however I see fit. Get over it.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:35

Just..pick a few of the replies to reply to?

That doesn't work though in reality. You then get hounded to answer one question in particular or get accused, as happened not long ago, of ignoring some posters even if they only posted a couple of times in pages and pages.

Disagreeing is fine. Robust argument is fine.

Name calling and misgendering is not fine. Deliberate dismissing and accusations of being a man - not fine.

R0wantrees · 07/10/2018 19:37

A lot of women thought the Suffragettes went too far and were a pain in the arse. Lucky you can vote and own property though, isn't it?

Postcard

Aggressive Feminism Boards
PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:39

But I don't want to post on the feminist boards

Hold on,. so you don't want to post on the feminism boards, fair enough (though you have posted a lot in this thread which is in FWR?) but how can you then complain that other people are not starting the threads that you want to see! Thats bonkers. If you want to see threads on certain topics, make those threads. Don't expect others to read your mind and start the threads that you apparently want to see, even though you apparently have FWR hidden anyway so you wouldn't see the threads that you want other people to start on the topic you wish us to talk about but don't wish to join in with yourself Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2018 19:40

I would never criticise a transwoman for saying they "feel like a woman"
Their feelings are their business.

It's only when they use such feelings as justification for violating single sex women's spaces that I disagree and say that's not acceptable
but that's the actions, not the feelings

fwiw, I always used to support the "gentlemen's agreement" in which transwomen indeed used our loos, but actually tried to look and behave like women.
They just got on with their lives, without exhibitionism or trying to shock / intimidate women & girls

Once this self-ID lunacy is hopefully thrown out, personally I'd like to get back to that for the genuine transwomen, who have sexual dysphoria, about 0.5% of the male populatio

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:40

I thought this thread was about you receiving insults and I agree that should not happen
We must be reasonably respectful to each other

However, if your real complaint is that we keep debating a topic you'd rather we just gave up on, that's not going to happen.

It started as the former and was then derailed.

I'd like to see other topics but only so that I could join in. I'm not saying don't debate the trans issue just that if that is all there is I will stay away. Because when I do post my views the insults and bullying start.

VerbeenaBeeks · 07/10/2018 19:42

A lot of women thought the Suffragettes went too far and were a pain in the arse. Lucky you can vote and own property though, isn't it?

Reminded me of another one the other day on the now deleted "how do I hide a topic" thread.
OP didn't even have to say that it was the feminism board for it all to kick off and "well go ahead and hide it then, yes silly women getting you the vote, don't you want to be able to vote."
Yeah, that's not the issue. It's some (not all) transphobia putting people off.

PersonWithAVulva · 07/10/2018 19:43

That doesn't work though in reality. You then get hounded to answer one question in particular or get accused, as happened not long ago, of ignoring some posters even if they only posted a couple of times in pages and pages.

Thats never ever happened to me. But I accept that its apparently happened to you. I have seen some posters asked one question over and over though. But this tends to be, what is your definition of woman/transwoman. As without that..well the rest of the conversation is meaningnless as 'transwoman' can mean a huge range of things. And of course if you are arguing that transwomen ARE women, then your definition of woman is important. FWR regulars do push quite hard for an answer to the 'whats your definition of woman' from TWAW posters, but this is because out of loads and loads of posters who berate us for transphobia for saying TWANW, not one of them has ever came up with a definition woman that includes women and transwomen, but excludes men, and does not rely on stereotypes (that not everyone follows) and is not circular (which is nonsense as a definition)

People may not push so hard for an answer if even one poster could give us one that makes sense!

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 19:43

Hold on,. so you don't want to post on the feminism boards, fair enough (though you have posted a lot in this thread which is in FWR?) but how can you then complain that other people are not starting the threads that you want to see!

That's a fair enough comment that I think I've answered above.

I don't feel that I can contribute to posts concentrated on trans issues. As that seems to be all there is I don't see a place for me in the feminism board.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2018 19:43

Then please start your kind of threads, because as you can see, many of us feel strongly about this particular topic
It really isn't reasonable to criticise the lack of threads that you aren't prepared to start

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