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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fionne Orlander

215 replies

CAAKE · 05/10/2018 20:52

Good one Fionne! Thanks

Fionne Orlander
OP posts:
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16
terryleather · 05/01/2019 16:36

Calling a man 'she' because you like them is a baffling feminist move.

I agree with you vagina, I have a lot of time for Miranda for example but I wouldn't call them she.

vaginafetishist · 05/01/2019 16:40

Knowing the first thing about being female isn't the point, they are all men. What's wrong with being a man?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/01/2019 16:40

I might refer to a man as female/feminine but never a woman. Can’t do it.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 17:04

It's a fair point, but I don't have an issue with courtesy - or nuance.

In reality, I don't naturally tend to call transsexuals "men" even though they are biologically male or unless they specifically ask me to do so (a la Miranda). I don't consider that "impure" or just as a result of conditioning. It is partly just habitual, I agree, but also don't think in reality and in our culture it is that simple either or entirely accurate. It depends partly on context. (as evidenced by the reaction of the man in the Gents to Fionne.)

I can't in all honestly say that in real life I'd look at Fionne and see "man" I don't see "woman" either - I realistically see someone who identifies as trans. i.e. unquestionably a biological male who both presents and names themselves in a way that many women in reality do.

Strangely, I do tend to call (male) cross-dressers men and have in the past found myself distinguishing quite easily between what we used to call transsexuals and transvestites. I'd guess it is that picking up of the difference between those with AGP and dysphoria - and the social cues that involves.

teawamutu · 05/01/2019 17:05

To be clear, I still don't, of course, think they're women.

And I'm not sure it's even about liking them, although I do. Just something about the way they approach the world - they get our viewpoint as far as they can, admit they'll never feel exactly the same way and are ok with that. That feels far more like female socialisation than male - hence easier to use pronouns if preferred.

I probably do need to do more thinking about this, just musing aloudBlush

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 17:16

To be clear, I still don't, of course, think they're women.

Me neither. Biologically male, always.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 17:17

I can't be mis-sexing in this political climate, for anyone, no matter how nice or how aligned with my views they are. No pasaran, I'm afraid.

Fionne is great.

FeministCat · 05/01/2019 17:19

Rowantrees

I am going to get off track a bit from thread but I think I need to start substituting “sex stereotypes” for gender when I talk to people in my life as it seems to me so many people don’t understand that *gender” is nothing more than a made up construct, or that the make-believe varies in time, country, culture, generations, etc. They hear gender and think sex, so the people I meet day to day don’t understand that transgender does not mean the old school transsexuals we knew of and were friends with 20-30 years ago.

I mean it was not all that long ago in the Western world (16th-early 20th century) that all children wore “dresses” - boys were only “breeched” (put in trousers or breeches) once they hit 2-8. The purpose of this was related to toilet training. There is a picture, for example, of Franklin D Roosevelt - seen in US as one of the greatest presidents, but also as far as I can tell accepted to be a man - at 2.5, from the 1880s, wearing long hair, payment leather party shoes, and a white dress/skirt, holding a pretty hat with a feather. Would these TRAs go back, see that picture of a boy in a dress and party shoes, and revise history to claim FDR was a “trans kid”, and say he should be put on puberty blockers? Well, now that I say that - some would, because it is shown time and time again context is not relevant. And until the 1920 and 1930s, pink was routinely considered the appropriate colour “for boys” (eg. Time magazine, 1927).

Then social expectations and customs changed again and dresses and pink become more stereotypically associated with girls. And now many - specifically many of these TRAs - not only rely on and reinforce these “newer” stereotypes to claim themselves as transgender, because they aren’t “their gender”. No, you reject sexual stereotypes - that are particular to the time, society, country, culture, generation you are in - which does not make you unique or not your sex

Anyway, hi all I am new here and stumbled here recently after reaching peak trans. As someone who grew up as a non-conforming to sex stereotypes girl in the 80, 90s, where I felt the message was I could be whatever I wanted and do whatever I wanted, where my uni classes were still called Women’s Studies, I feel we are seeing a massive backslide of girls and women’s rights, and it angers me. I also am pained by what I see happening to children - if I - who is still not conforming to sex stereotypes - was a child today, or my brother was a child today - who as a young boy said he wanted to grow up to be not only a woman, but a Chinese woman, and is today a very happy gay man married to an equally happy gay man - well, I could see how my mothers acceptance of us as we were would be seen as “abuse” by TRAs and so on and we would be encouraged to secretly take puberty blockers and hormones and so on. The “could have been” is horrific, and the future some of these children face is incredibly saddening to me. I am childfree and sterilized, but I give a damn more about these children then those pushing them to forever alter their bodies and medical futures - before they even understand the implications - do.

That was getting off track, but I just wanted to say it is refreshing to see someone like Fionne in all this insanity.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 17:22

Welcome, FeministCat!

FeministCat · 05/01/2019 17:24

*patent leather shoes.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 18:27

I can't be mis-sexing in this political climate, for anyone, no matter how nice or how aligned with my views they are. No pasaran, I'm afraid.

Fair enough Lang. I do see your point. Give an inch...

FeministCat I feel much the same way as you. It seems obvious to me. I don't want to get too misty-eyed about the 80s/90s (the normalised rampant homophobia and Mrs T for a start) but I consider myself lucky I grew up then and not now. It feels as if we had an all-too-brief window of freedom. I don't think it is at all coincidental that transgenderism has flourished at the same time that sex stereotype boxes have re-emerged with such rigidity in society.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 18:28

(If you give an inch, I mean. A mile is taken)

FeministCat · 05/01/2019 20:12

Thanks for the welcome LangCleg

hellandhairnets yes, for sure, I recall well how the horrible homophobia had severe consequences during the AIDS crisis that I don’t think can ever be forgiven and certainly not forgotten. And certainly my remembrance does not extinguish those other experiences that girls and women can identify with due to very fact they are girls and women (sexual assault and violence, for one).

But I feel we were on the way. That we were going to get there. But now I feel like I took a short nap and woke up to find the rights I now naively assumed would be picked up and carried on by were instead gift wrapped and handed right back again.

waterlego6064 · 05/01/2019 20:39

Great posts FeministCat. Glad you hit peak trans and found MN. There is so much informed and rigorous discussion here. I have learned almost everything I know about feminism from the amazing women here.

I totally understand those who will never refer to a TW as she.

hellandhairnets and teawamutu have said it better than I ever could, and I can only hope that other feminists don’t see me as a handmaiden for it. 😬

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/01/2019 07:49

Joss Prior
@joss_prior
Join me
@DrAdrianHarrop
, &
@FionneOrlander
in a festival of fun, wit, opinion and live discussion on youtube.

Friday 18th january.

Time/channel to be announced.

Katvonbatshit · 06/01/2019 08:26

Seems the "lady" was for turning eh Joss?
And haddock as your wing person. Fab!

ILikeyourHairyHands · 06/01/2019 08:54

Have the words 'fun' and 'wit' been appropriated to mean 'dire' and 'bollocks?

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 08:56

This is bravery!
Wine Fionne

Fionne Orlander
Fionne Orlander
R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 09:00

Fionne Orlander twitter comment

Fionne Orlander
Cuntysnark · 06/01/2019 09:04

Fionne IS brave-will be an interesting interaction.

Katvonbatshit · 06/01/2019 09:15

Fionne Flowers
And Gin

teawamutu · 06/01/2019 09:46

Fionne's common sense and courtesy should shine out, if the two frothing ideologues allow F to get a word in edgeways.

Will be interesting to see if Dr Haddock tries to bully and mansplain to a TW.

hellandhairnets · 06/01/2019 10:13

I hope Fionne will be OK. - this challenge to them is indeed brave, although bloody bravo Fionne for taking them on.Flowers As I recall from the youtube discussion with Miranda, Fionne is quite shy. I'm not so sure about the two-against-one aspect.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 06/01/2019 10:22

💐💐
Two against one is unfair but we all fully support Fiona.

LangCleg · 06/01/2019 10:35

Fionne, if you're reading: ages ago, on Twitter, you said this:

If we don't address male pattern abuse it transitions with us.

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1023604707586134026

It's stuck with me all this time because it's true. Let others fly their red flags and you keep pointing them out.

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