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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fionne Orlander

215 replies

CAAKE · 05/10/2018 20:52

Good one Fionne! Thanks

Fionne Orlander
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16
R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 11:19

BTW, I'm not suggesting that a person's serenity, attractiveness or style shouldn't be admired. Smile

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 11:30

On a recent thread, OtherPamAyres wrote:

"I loved an anecdote by one of letter's signatories, Fionne Olander, about emerging from a cubicle in the gents and being faced with a bloke at the urinals.
He looked confused and asked her whether he was in the Guy's toilets.
She replied: "Yes. I'm a guy"
He said: "Well you're a very pretty guy"
She dried her hands, said 'thank you' and walked out, head high.

That's my kind of transwoman and she gets a flowers from me.

So does that bloke at the urinals flowers "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals?pg=17&messages=25

howonearthdidwegethere · 05/01/2019 11:34

I like Fionne. And remember the comment about using the men's loos.

Although I have to say, I would not feel safe calling out a transwoman using female toilets. And therein lies the rub.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 11:38

If you don't exhibit the red flags of male entitlement and possible danger, women react well to you. If you fly those flags with aggressive abandon, they don't.

Who knew?!

PencilsInSpace · 05/01/2019 11:41

Ironically, it generally does seem to be the trans people who aren't hung up on pronouns and who accept being male who it's easy to call 'she'

It makes sense. I don't think any of us want to be deliberately rude for no reason. Probably most of us used to be OK using preferred pronouns when it was simply a matter of courtesy and not compelled speech designed to disappear women's rights. It feels safe to call Fionne 'she' because we know he doesn't have that agenda.

From Helen Saxby's WPUK talk in Brighton:

The phrase ‘transwomen are women’ is naively understood to be simply a courtesy to a male trans person, a sign of allyship. If you don’t join in, because you stick to the definition of women which is biologically correct, you are nailing your colours to the mast and this is risky. There is a huge amount of abuse directed at women who refuse to do as they are told, and this fact demonstrates that the use of ‘transwomen are women’ is not as benign as it first seems. If you wish to be ‘nice’ to someone, that is your free choice, but if you are punished for NOT being ‘nice’ then it is no free choice at all and it begins to look more like bullying and coercion.

...

‘Transwomen are women’ is political dogma, repeated endlessly and deliberately in order to reinforce the message. Because there is #nodebate it has been made almost impossible to counter. For this reason I now reject, as a political act in my turn, the notion that ‘transwomen are women’. It has nothing to do with ‘hate’ or ‘transphobia’ or ‘bigotry’. If the political arm of the Anti Kitten-Stomping League was trying to infringe on women’s rights, I’d fight them too: it wouldn’t mean that I approved of stomping on kittens. It is purely a political defence of the rights of women and girls, against a political movement which threatens those rights. It is undemocratic to threaten and abuse women who speak out on this.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 05/01/2019 11:43

I loved the anecdote about Fionne in the men's lavatory. That is class.

waterlego6064 · 05/01/2019 11:46

Not sure if it was Joss or somebody else, but someone on Twitter told Fionne that ‘TERFs’ are nice to her face but horrible behind her back.

This thread disproves that, so I hope they’re reading 🙂

Katvonbatshit · 05/01/2019 11:54

They are always saying that sort of thing. Cheap shots. Really manipulative.

People can have diverse friends and not agree 100% on everything all the time.

Crazy idea eh? Not you lot though TRAs.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 05/01/2019 12:00

Fionne, this terf thinks you are fabulous.

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 12:01

Fionne Orlander Twitter comment, "A point illustrated by @ jackappleby & @ dragonwaking and myself"

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1081268997579067393

Fionne Orlander
Fionne Orlander
Fionne Orlander
PineappleSunrise · 05/01/2019 12:03

That's an interesting point, Kat. I popped onto Twitter a couple of times over Christmas and noticed that a significant proportion of my twitterstream was fairly young-ish (20-something) people angsting about bad family relationships at Christmas.

One really stood out to me, though: someone I know professionally was really struggling with the fact that she doesn't get on with her parents, but finds herself politically aligned with them so "they're not bad people." Her cognitive dissonance over the fact that people can be toxic AND share all your political views was striking.

Imagine the next step, when she realises that sometimes people can be balanced, good people and NOT share your political views on everything. Her head may explode...

Katvonbatshit · 05/01/2019 12:11

pineapple Grin

PineappleSunrise · 05/01/2019 12:32

It was a real generation divide moment for me! Not the angst over good people/shared politics - I think that's actually quite normal - but the fact that she was grousing about it to thousands of people on Twitter. Her parents must be "offline." Which reminds me, I must remind my kids to do their future bitching about me on What's App or a similar future product to people they actually know. Grin

Yambabe · 05/01/2019 13:51

Happy to support Fionne publicly on twitter and less publicly on here.

I think she has a healthy attitude to herself obtained by many years of battling dysphoria and I'm delighted that she can embrace both her male biology and her feminine feelings.

I just wish others would actually listen to what she is saying. There is no "the Terfs". There is however a wide variety of people across all walks of life who don't agree with the trans idealogy and want to talk about it.

Joss Prior is a dick though, barging into a respectful and interesting discussion between two transwomen and chucking insults at Fionne without actually presenting an opposing view for consideration. Male entitlement much? Sad

SlowlyShrinking · 05/01/2019 14:08

Joss seems to be refusing to debate with Fionne (for whatever reason Wink) whilst simultaneously claiming that Fionne would be brave to debate live because she (Fionne) ‘couldn’t back up her bullshit’
Darvo or what?!

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 14:12

If you refuse to acknowledge red flags, you don't know when you're flying them for all to see.

VaginalAcoustic1212 · 05/01/2019 14:25

Joss ain't worth the breath. I've already wasted more than 30 letters of type on them. That'll do.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 14:34

I think she has a healthy attitude to herself obtained by many years of battling dysphoria and I'm delighted that she can embrace both her male biology and her feminine feelings.

I think so too. Got a lot of time for Fionne, she's mature and way calmer with it all than I would be able to be. And has amazing sense of personal style to boot.

I think becoming GC must be relatively recent as Fionne is still quite young, and I know she said it took a while before realising Miranda Yardley was not the ogre Miranda is always portrayed to be. There are other younger trans people coming out the other side, as it were, the way Fionne has and towards honest self-acceptance, but still far too few.

It makes me furious that so many young people are being held back in this ridiculous ideological prison, which dooms them to spend all their efforts & energy trying to police an external world that can never be made to concur with their subjective realities. It's toxic and unhealthy and just serves to magnify and cement any underlying MH problems there are. I really do hope things'll be moving beyond this limited, toxic way of thinking at some point soon and towards true self-acceptance and freedom.

teawamutu · 05/01/2019 14:44

Just followed Fionne and I'm a little bit in love - so wise, calm and clear.

And like others on this thread, I'm struck that the trans women I naturally accept as 'she' with no effort (Miranda, Fionne O etc) are the ones who are quite clear that they're NOT women. The empathy and consideration are so markedly different from Prior, Madigan et al.

Queenofthedrivensnow · 05/01/2019 14:45

Oh I love her. Big twitter fan

Neurotrash · 05/01/2019 15:54

And like others on this thread, I'm struck that the trans women I naturally accept as 'she' with no effort (Miranda, Fionne O etc) are the ones who are quite clear that they're NOT women. The empathy and consideration are so markedly different from Prior, Madigan et al.

It's not being 'forced to penetrate.'

welshgendercrit · 05/01/2019 16:14

I think the fact that Fionne respects women's sex segregated spaces, means she is no threat to women, in return many people are happy to use ‘she’ when referring to Fionne as respect goes both ways.
The TWAW mantra just gets people hackles up as it is a blatant lie.

Exactly. I've followed Fionne on Twitter for some time and love her calm commonsense and clearsightedness, qualities in far too short supply on social media.

vaginafetishist · 05/01/2019 16:24

Calling a man 'she' because you like them is a baffling feminist move.

vaginafetishist · 05/01/2019 16:25

We're always trying to say it's not personal, it's a matter of accuracy and truth.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/01/2019 16:32

I follow Fionne in twitter and - from what I see (I’m always suspicious of going by what people choose to show you) they seem a really genuinely nice person who is confident and happy in their own skin. And they love their little ratties.

I’m not sure if they say he/she about themselves - but this is one person where I’d respect their choice because they respect women and women issues/fears/thoughts. Others, I couldn’t do this for as they don’t know the first thing about being female (or care a toss either).

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