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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’

188 replies

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 11:18

Response to petition,
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Since the planned reform of the Gender Recognition Act was announced a year ago, there have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist, trying to undermine their ability to go about their daily lives free from fear and abuse. This week, a petition has been launched directly asking Stonewall to reconsider our work on trans equality.
The petition asks us to acknowledge that there are a range of viewpoints around sex and gender. Of course we know that these differing views exist, and have existed for many years. The petition also asks us to acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’. We do not and will not acknowledge this. Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others. However, we are unequivocal in our support of trans people’s – and everyone’s – right to equality and will remain so. Our motto is ‘acceptance without exception’. (continues)

www.stonewall.org.uk/stonewall-stories-category/come-out-lgbt/our-work-trans-equality-heart-our-mission-acceptance

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384307-James-Kirkup-Spectator-lead-article-Trans-rights-have-gone-wrong-The-new-gender-orthodoxy-allows-no-room-for-dissent

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Thread gallery
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R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 22:16

Lachlan Stuart Twitter comment:

"In the year ending 30 Sept 2017, Stonewall received grants of around £300k (FCO), £150k (DfE), £115k (WelshG) and £100k (ScotG) - representing more than 2/3 of its grants income, a tenth of all income, and an increase of more than 100k in government grants from the previous year.

More public money filled Stonewall coffers through the fees it charges, much of which is paid by publicly funded authorities, and for the programmes it runs. Taxpayers have the right to insist that Stonewall understands and upholds the law, even as it lobbies for reform.

Today, CEO Ruth Hunt went on Radio 4 and claimed that it's 'enshrined in law' that 'trans women are women'. A credible, publicly funded expert voice, given a national platform.

That's not the law. For most intents and purposes, for some trans people, it may as well be ...

.. but not for all purposes, and certainly not for all people under Stonewall's all-encompassing 'trans umbrella'. Far from it. And Ruth knows it, which is why she's lobbying for change.

File under 'disingenuous', marked 'for Ministerial attention'."

twitter.com/Lachlan_Edi/status/1047929015602991105

(Domestic Policy Adviser Labour Party)

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Noqont · 04/10/2018 22:20

If men really want to be women, then they've got to take the shit with the sunshine.

That's it isn't it. As socialised men they don't expect to be treated like that. And when they are they blame the women for it, for failure to take them in, protect them and take the fall when things go wrong. But actually, it's men that are to blame for this. The men that are violent or abusive and the men who think it's ok to tell the women to budge up because they're coming in and they're going to be women now as well.

theOtherPamAyres · 04/10/2018 22:21

The way Ruth Hunt handled the PM interview reminded me of something. She reminded me of an advocate that had received instructions from a client.

Solicitors/advocates tell you that it is not their place to judge the client's story. They don't have to believe it or question it - their job is to provide the best possible case on their behalf. Solicitors won't make up stuff, or embellish, but will 'take the line' that their client instructed them to - even when it sounds crazy.

That's how Ruth Hunt came across to me - an advocate holding a brief from the Trans Advisory Panel, that was thin and insubstantial, but giving it her best shot. It was a neat sleight of hand to disguise the fact that Stonewall has been the driver of transgender policies.

Ruth set up the Trans Advisory Panel. She was doing so well with the flimsy brief backed by crackpot science and puff, before the sticky brown stuff hit the chandelier.

She has ramped up the divisive state of play during her interview - casting the TRAs as victims of a campaign to erase them and failing to acknowledge the concerns from LBG and Women.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 22:43

That's how Ruth Hunt came across to me - an advocate holding a brief from the Trans Advisory Panel, that was thin and insubstantial, but giving it her best shot. It was a neat sleight of hand to disguise the fact that Stonewall has been the driver of transgender policies.

Didn't 'Press For Change' work with/advise Stonewall?

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R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 22:44

She has ramped up the divisive state of play during her interview - casting the TRAs as victims of a campaign to erase them

This is a definite narrative.
See Owen Jones, Jane Fae etc

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heresyandwitchcraft · 04/10/2018 22:54

It all seems a little like leakage. So many narratives the trans activists have been saying are almost the direct reverse of what is happening.

"Erasing/invalidating trans people"
No, that's what YOU are doing to women/lesbians. Jess Bradley was on national television saying there was no such thing as a real woman. Trans activists don't think there is such a thing as an actual female. Lesbians are being told their same-sex orientation is invalid, and that they're not real lesbians.... YOU are silencing women.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/10/2018 23:02

Not forgetting 'enjoy your erasure' Faye.

MipMipMip · 04/10/2018 23:14

I'm actually pretty annoyed at Julie Blundell for that. She has information that could affect how people complete a government consultation and is keeping it back until most people (who know about it) have already sent it in. Better story, worse result.

Given both Stone wall and the Green Party appear to be doing more than just advising people on how to complete the GRA it must surely be considered compromised. I intend to complain but would it be better if it was started afresh or just viewed as gamed? Not that I expect either to happen.

LikeDustWeRise · 04/10/2018 23:25

You know Pam I felt like that. I wonder if Stephen Whittle is one of the un-named advisors on the STAG.

DoctorTwo · 04/10/2018 23:51

I understand Ruth Hunt is a lesbian. As she believes TWAW, I would love to ask her if she involves TWs in her sex life, and if not (because penis), does that not make her a transphobic bigot.

HandsOffMyRights · 04/10/2018 23:58

Not speaking the Ruth has peak transed more on Twitter.

Tonight I've noticed several 'new' trans voices and gay men speaking out against this.

New plan. Just let no truth Ruth speak trans the nation with her tall tales.

Molokonono · 05/10/2018 00:01

I'm actually pretty annoyed at Julie Blundell for that. She has information that could affect how people complete a government consultation and is keeping it back until most people (who know about it) have already sent it in. Better story, worse result.

Huh? What did i miss?

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 05/10/2018 05:26

SignMeUp

That's nothing. The Greens filled in the GRA consultation for you

Under the auspices of David and Aimee Challoner (the latter is also on the Stonewall Trans Advisory panel)

Charliethefeminist · 05/10/2018 07:59

AC is Secretary of the Trans Advisory Committee

Ereshkigal · 05/10/2018 08:19

So many narratives the trans activists have been saying are almost the direct reverse of what is happening.

This is an essential part of the narcissism. They enjoy this aspect of it. The more outrageous the better.

Ereshkigal · 05/10/2018 08:24

I like Storme (how did toy flsoo the derry over the e?) but these days I just think of the porn actress, so maybe not.

On an iPhone hold down the e key and lots of accented es will come up!

R0wantrees · 05/10/2018 08:27

AC is Secretary of the Trans Advisory Committee

Does Sarah Brown have a specific role on the Trans Advisory Committee?

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Charliethefeminist · 05/10/2018 08:41

I don't know. AC tweeted after theRuth Hunt statement that it was 'a good day to be secretary of Stonewall's TAC'. Miranda Y would know. Just going back in for another look.

borntobequiet · 05/10/2018 09:13

I was brought up and educated a Catholic. In my experience, Catholic education is a prolonged exercise in cognitive dissonance and coercion. If successful, it renders one potentially able to believe in anything, however ridiculous.

MipMipMip · 05/10/2018 09:36

Molokonono

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
theOtherPamAyres · 05/10/2018 11:59

Taxpayers have a right to know whether Stonewall is spending public money properly. The question 'are you doing the right thing in the right way?' requires a convincing answer.

Hunt said that there was no obligation to look at the wider picture. Stonewall's sole job was to stand up for the transgender lobby clients umbrella.

In the end, it will come down to money and whether public money is being used properly.

^In the year ending 30 Sept 2017, Stonewall received grants of around £300k (FCO)
£150k (DfE),
£115k (WelshG)
and £100k (ScotG)

  • representing more than 2/3 of its grants income, a tenth of all income, and an increase of more than 100k in government grants from the previous year.

More public money filled Stonewall coffers through the fees it charges, much of which is paid by publicly funded authorities, and for the programmes it runs^.

(Stuart Lachlan, Twitter thread 04/10/2018)

theOtherPamAyres · 05/10/2018 12:05

Here's the Minister Penny Mordaunt finding time to speak at Stonewall's fringe meeting at the Conservative Party Conference.

But in the PM interview, Ruth Hunt told us that Stonewall had no power, no influence and was just a lickle ickle underdog fighting off the people who would take away the rights of trans people to exist.

No power? She was having a laugh, wasn't she?

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
R0wantrees · 05/10/2018 12:12

May 2018 thread with joint lobbying of Penny Mordant by Stonewall, Mermaids and Amnesty.

Also includes a number of parliamentary / westminster based receptions conferences etc:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242812--Amnesty-International-Mermaids-and-Stonewall-have-signed-an-open-letter-to-Penny-Mordaunt-stating-the-importance-of-reforming-the-Gender-Recognition-Act?

June 2018 thread Westminster Social Policy Forum. The event included may in stategic and influential roles eg politics, health, BBC etc:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

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Needmoresleep · 05/10/2018 13:02

From the outside, I cannot see that Ruth Hunt is more than a figurehead. The token lesbian, on an attractive salary, whose strings are pulled by others.

Again due diligence and governance. Who appointed, say, Aimee Challenor to their Trans-advisory group? What about the others, given their reach in terms of advice and training cuts across society from schools to banks?

Their website says "MEMBERS OF THE GROUP WERE APPOINTED FOLLOWING AN EXTENSIVE APPLICATION AND RECRUITMENT PROCESS. PLEASE NOTE, SOME MEMBERS OF THE GROUP HAVE ELECTED TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS, SO HAVE NOT BEEN INCLUDED ON THIS LIST."

Were vacancies advertised, what selection processes were used, what checks: DBS, qualifications etc, were made. Who is salaried, or what commercial benefits such as consultancy on behalf of Stonewall are given.

What sort of Governance is there. Internally, what happens if someone breaches, or stretches, current organisational policy. How is that policy set. What happens if someone could be considered as bringing the organisation into disrepute. (AC and Terfblocker might be an example, not least because a good proportion of those blocked were lesbian.)

What research and fact checking is done before policy is decided? Is any research commissioned, and how? Peer review processes? How are partner organisations (Mermaids) decided?

And externally, beyond the Charities Commission, where is the Governance. Stonewall is busy sticking its logo on the letterhead of its "Global Diversity Champions" and on its "Education Champions", but what quality mark, in terms of organisation, governance and financial integrity, do they aim for.

And its clients and donors. Does anyone check that this is a reputable organisation, capable of delivering their training and advice needs in a reasonable and acceptable manner. When I worked in a Civil Service role, we had to follow Government Procurement Guidelines, and had a list of pre-approved specialist contractors our area could use. Stonewall, are to a large extent a training and advice consultancy. Is anyone in the Public Sector looking at the value for money (including the appropriateness) of the services they provide. Or is it simply have an unregulated, ungoverned monopoly.

A quick look at Ruth's background and I wonder if she is really qualified for the job, if the job means running a far-reaching consultancy aimed at reducing barriers in the workplace and supporting LGBT+ people in society. The Trans-advisory group was only set up in 2015. If Ruth does not get a grip, I think it will go on to destroy the organisation. A good campaigner seeking societal change needs to understand the concerns of wider society, and accept that they exist. And have an understanding that societal change takes time. You don't simply respond with accusations of Hate, or demands for re-education. You don't expect granny with a weak bladder to be nonchalant when faced with a bloke in the loo at the theatre, or at least you give her some time to get used to it and throw in a few design and management suggestions.

Ofr is it just easier to take the salary and repeat Transwomen are Women like a mantra, hoping if you say it enough, it will be true.

Needmoresleep · 05/10/2018 13:06

FWIW I think gay men will be crucial if Stonewall is to be reined in. Their stake in Self-ID is much less obvious, so they cannot as easily be written off as haters. It is good to see some sensible, prominent and respected gay men step forward to help protect the organisation they helped create. A new LGB partnership?