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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’

188 replies

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 11:18

Response to petition,
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Since the planned reform of the Gender Recognition Act was announced a year ago, there have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist, trying to undermine their ability to go about their daily lives free from fear and abuse. This week, a petition has been launched directly asking Stonewall to reconsider our work on trans equality.
The petition asks us to acknowledge that there are a range of viewpoints around sex and gender. Of course we know that these differing views exist, and have existed for many years. The petition also asks us to acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’. We do not and will not acknowledge this. Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others. However, we are unequivocal in our support of trans people’s – and everyone’s – right to equality and will remain so. Our motto is ‘acceptance without exception’. (continues)

www.stonewall.org.uk/stonewall-stories-category/come-out-lgbt/our-work-trans-equality-heart-our-mission-acceptance

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384307-James-Kirkup-Spectator-lead-article-Trans-rights-have-gone-wrong-The-new-gender-orthodoxy-allows-no-room-for-dissent

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
LangCleg · 04/10/2018 13:57

past the point

Sorry.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 13:59

I noticed that DSs school pride society is screening Stonewall. Not seen the film but hope to God it's not a recent l representation l of them (I'm assuming it's about them...Maybe it's about the American civil war?)

ErrolTheDragon · 04/10/2018 14:02

From stonewalls booklet linked to upthread, 'transgender' includes

• Gender benders • Gender blenders • Drag queens • Drag kings • Butch women
• Effeminate men • Anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender

Sure, that last one is never likely to cause any issue for women's rights.Hmm

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 14:04

Sarah Brown influential LibDem & member of Stonewall's Trans Inclusion group to James Kirkup, Janice Turner, Sarah Ditum, Julie Bindel, Helen Lewis

JK: "PS When I write about this issue, some people tell me I am "brave" to do so. I'm not. VictoriaPeckham sarahditum bindelj helenlewis - these are brave journalists on this topic."
twitter.com/jameskirkup/status/1047771354911715328

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
OP posts:
FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 14:04

Id love the see the person/people who wrote that.

thatdamnwoman · 04/10/2018 14:11

Ruth Hunt can't back down. This is what she's built her entire reputation on: it was she who took Stonewall in the T direction and if she loses on this she'll be the woman who drove a venerable and highly successful institution into a wall. The only dignified way out for her is to step down on health reasons but then whoever takes over may backtrack and steer Stonewall away from the rocks which will leave her looking bad. She'll be busted, whatever happens, so she may as well keep lying and claiming her secret but probably six-figure salary.

Stonewall gets somewhere around £700, 000 million from Westminster, the Scottish government and the Welsh Assembly, so if anyone's going to see their MP about self ID then it's probably worth pointing out that it's turned on the lesbians it's supposed to be supporting.

Can you challenge a charity's right to be a charity if it's actively working against the rights of the people it is supposed to represent? An appeal to the Charity Commission?

OvaHere · 04/10/2018 14:12

Anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender

Can I identify as a transwomen? Speak on behalf of transwomen? Accept awards? Access specific resources?

Do you think that would wash in this brave new world?

If anyone argues that no I can't then they have to also accept that the trans prefix has specific meaning and is also the reason why TW are not W.

OvaHere · 04/10/2018 14:16

Can you challenge a charity's right to be a charity if it's actively working against the rights of the people it is supposed to represent?

This is why the rapid expansion of the alphabet has caused so much issue. All the straight people who now fall under it probably actually outnumber the LGB.

deepwatersolo · 04/10/2018 14:16

From stonewalls booklet linked to upthread, 'transgender' includes
• Gender benders • Gender blenders • Drag queens • Drag kings • Butch women • Effeminate men • Anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender

Effeminate men and Butch women will be thrilled to be thrown under the trans umbrella. God forbid a man or a woman could be however they like to be, without having their manhood or womanhood challenged.

And they will even be more thrilled to find themselves under the umbrella with anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender, which should include quite a bunch of paedophiles and habitual rapists, too.
(Hello Karen White and Jacinta!)

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 04/10/2018 14:18

As one of the gays, I can honestly say that Stonewall don't speak for me in any sense now - the law protects my existing rights. Ironically, Stonewall are actively throwing my (how to describe this?) 'social' rights as a gay woman in the bin by championing the right of men to 'stamp' on women.

Snap. I remember Stonewall's SOME PEOPLE ARE LESBIAN - GET OVER IT posters from the days when they actually gave a fuck about lesbian rights. I used to volunteer for them. Nowadays they're actively homophobic.

trenchant · 04/10/2018 14:23

If Stonewall are discredited, who stands up for gay rights in the UK?

Maybe we have to build again? Stonewall's dead from the point of view of lesbian and gay rights and it's not salvageable.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 14:25

Can you challenge a charity's right to be a charity if it's actively working against the rights of the people it is supposed to represent?

Guardian
'Charities need to stop slide in public trust warns regulator
Groups risking censure, says Charity Commission, citing aggressive fundraising and betrayal of charitable focus'

Registered charities may not survive unless they behave with greater selflessness and stop the slide in public trust, Tina Stowell, chair of the Charity Commission is warning.

Lady Stowell, a former Conservative minister, is to set out a tougher stance over the regulation of the £74bn-a-year sector after a string of scandals, including the collapse of Kids Company in 2015, and the sexual exploitation in Haiti by a senior Oxfam worker, which emerged in 2018.

The UK’s 168,000 registered charities face censure unless they show they are “a living example of charitable purpose”, she will say on Thursday.

In a speech that also attempts to draw a line under criticism of the regulator’s own effectiveness, Stowell will warn that the “concept of charity” is under threat.

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She will single out aggressive fundraising practices, the exploitation of vulnerable people, and single-minded pursuit of organisational growth at the expense of charitable objectives, as examples of bad behaviour that should cease.

The speech is likely to be seen in part as an opening salvo in a negotiation for greater government funding following several years of cuts which have weakened the commission.

Stowell will not mention cases by name but will tell charity bosses: “The public has seen questionable behaviour and concluded – you are not who you appear to be.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/03/charities-need-stop-slide-public-trust-warns-regulator

OP posts:
FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 14:28

3,125 Signatures

TwistedStitch · 04/10/2018 14:30

This is a comment on Stonewall's FB page, under a post about the GRA. This is the bullying and erasure of lesbians that apparently doesn't exist, from one of their supporters on their own page.

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
Badstyley · 04/10/2018 14:31

Whenever I see or hear the name Stonewall I always think, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 14:34

'women who happen to have been born with a penis...'

You couldn't make it up. I've not heard of a f2m whine about being born without their willy yet - like it got lost in the post or something - or maybe one of the girl babies got it by mistake. I hatesubstitutions.

OvaHere · 04/10/2018 14:38

Twisted

That FB reply seems to be insinuating that TW are at risk from assault and murder by Lesbian women.

What a blatant reversal of the truth.

jgrobinson · 04/10/2018 14:44

apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityFramework.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1101255&SubsidiaryNumber=0

One of its objects is
'TO PROMOTE EQUALITY AND DIVERSITY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND IN PARTICULAR THE ELIMINATION OF DISCRIMINATION ON THE GROUND OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION'

Possibly one could argue that Stonewall is violating this by promoting policies which disadvantage homosexuals (eps lesbians), but I can't see the Charity Commission wanting to intervene.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 14:47

'women who happen to have been born with a penis...'

cf Roz Kaveney speech:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384525-vast-hairy-prongs

OP posts:
Molokonono · 04/10/2018 14:49

Gynophile?

Yup. Definitely adding that to the sticker book.

dolorsit · 04/10/2018 14:53

Haven't we gone beyond that though? We have gay marriage, employment rights discrimination rights...

The same is said about women's rights and that we now have equality. I'm sure many of us would dispute that.

There is still a need for an organisation to champion gay rights. It might not be Stonewall but it's still needed.

LemonJello · 04/10/2018 15:05

The petition also asks us to acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’. We do not and will not acknowledge this

Sorry haven’t RTFT yet but just wanted to point out that the petition and Stonewalls dismissal of it absolutely proves there is a conflict of rights. If there were no conflict there would be no objection and no petition needed!

napmeistergeneral · 04/10/2018 15:05

The speed of that response implies no internal consultation, no reflection, no analysis. At all. Just parrot the party line and make sure to imply that all "dissenters" are bigots. It is breathtakingly arrogant.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 15:10

July 2018 James Kirkup Twitter thread on Government assertion that single sex exemptions Equalities Act 2010 would not be affected:

"Some facts about the events that preceded the Government statement here that the coming consultation on the Gender Recognition Act will be narrowly drawn and not affect the Equality Act’s single sex exemptions.

I offer these facts because some are claiming “there was never any question of removing/amending EA exceptions.” Those claims are either mistaken or dishonest.
August 2015
Stonewall submission to the Women & Equalities Select Committee says MPs should amend the EA to
“remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces”
Jan 2016
Women & Equalities Committee says EA should be amended so that

“occupational requirements provision and / or the single-sex / separate services provision shall not apply”.

July 2016
Govt response to W&E Committee says: “we agree with the principle of this recommendation” on EA exemptions and seeks evidence for “future policy discussions”

July 2017
Govt promises GRA reform “ as part of a broad consultation of the legal system that underpins gender transition.”

July 2017
Stonewall commits to “advocate for the removal” of EA provisions allowing sex-based discrimination.

June 2018
Govt says:

“We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces.”
In sum: MPs and others told govt to amend/remove Equality Act single-sex exemptions. Govt considered doing so. Then govt ruled it out. / ends"

includes link to sources:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1004635839480164352.html?refreshed=yes

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 04/10/2018 15:11

Bigot: a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Just saying...