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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’

188 replies

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 11:18

Response to petition,
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Since the planned reform of the Gender Recognition Act was announced a year ago, there have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist, trying to undermine their ability to go about their daily lives free from fear and abuse. This week, a petition has been launched directly asking Stonewall to reconsider our work on trans equality.
The petition asks us to acknowledge that there are a range of viewpoints around sex and gender. Of course we know that these differing views exist, and have existed for many years. The petition also asks us to acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’. We do not and will not acknowledge this. Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others. However, we are unequivocal in our support of trans people’s – and everyone’s – right to equality and will remain so. Our motto is ‘acceptance without exception’. (continues)

www.stonewall.org.uk/stonewall-stories-category/come-out-lgbt/our-work-trans-equality-heart-our-mission-acceptance

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384307-James-Kirkup-Spectator-lead-article-Trans-rights-have-gone-wrong-The-new-gender-orthodoxy-allows-no-room-for-dissent

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
OldCrone · 04/10/2018 11:46

In support of their statement Stonewall say:

A recent poll by the Thomson Reuters Foundation asked 1,000 women in Cairo, London, Mexico City, New York and Tokyo: "Should transgender women have the same rights as other women?" Women across the world overwhelmingly agreed, including 87% of women in London (and New York).

If they asked a random selection of women that question, I wonder how many thought that by "transgender woman" they meant someone born female who was transgender? It's not the usual way to refer to a male born transgender person, and I've noticed in newspaper comments people thinking "transwoman" means a female born person. Even I would have to ask for clarification if someone used the term "transgender woman".

TransposersArePosers · 04/10/2018 11:49

But what she has written is nonsense!

Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others
I think she has mistakenly written 'the same rights as others' when what she means is 'more rights than others'. Forgive my ignorance, but what rights do Trans people not have that every one else does?

However, we are unequivocal in our support of trans people’s – and everyone’s – right to equality (except actual women)

That George Orwell has got a lot to answer for! Never mind 1984 and newspeak, this is more Animal Farm : All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

hackmum · 04/10/2018 11:50

I find it interesting that this entire movement rests on telling a few central lies, such as: "There have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist." That isn't true, and Ruth Hunt knows it isn't true. But she has no compunction about saying it. Same with the fake suicide stats. Same with the repeated statement that concerns about self-ID demonise trans people, when in fact they're about stopping men from abusing women and girls. It doesn't matter how often we point out what the real issues are, or that the stats are fake, they persist in repeating the same lies.

LangCleg · 04/10/2018 11:50

I really can’t take any more. I naively thought they would listen.

They won't listen. Even if they take us into a far right backlash that takes out trans people, the L and G, and women, they still won't listen.

shetheyhim · 04/10/2018 11:50

Well that's very clear then Ruth isn't it. I've signed the petition and am glad that there is a high profile petition running with lots of measured, intelligent comments from all types of people that Stonewall claims to represent. It's plain as day that Stonewall doesn't represent them anymore. I believe that there is a conflict between trans rights and women's sex-based rights, and so do many of your constituency (except maybe they're not your constituency anymore?)

trumpetoftheswan · 04/10/2018 11:51

'same rights' is a very vague term. Same rights to needs-based health care, civil liberties, protection by the law, right to vote, own property, earn money etc etc Yes, of course.

Rights to over-rule women's current sex-based rights sounds a bit different, doesn't it?

OldCrone · 04/10/2018 11:51

debating whether gay people exist, or whether people of a certain faith should be able to access services, would rightly not be tolerated. It is the same for trans people.

But not for women, apparently.

OvaHere · 04/10/2018 11:58

It's an obvious DARVO manoeuvre to claim that trans people are being erased.

There is only one class of people being erased her and it isn't them. It's the cervix havers, pregnant people, menstruators, bleeders and non men.

Formerly known as women.

OldCrone · 04/10/2018 11:59

The petition also calls for respectful debate on this issue. That is something we can sign up to wholeheartedly: the debate as it stands is not respectful. It has become demonising, divisive and shaming.

Ruth should tell all the anti-woman campaigners to stop telling us to 'die in a fire' and all their other threats of violence. They could also stop calling us transphobic for wanting a debate, that they keep shutting down with #nodebate.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 11:59

recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366278-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-CEO?

OP posts:
bzzbeebzz · 04/10/2018 12:05

As always, follow the money.
Ruth appears to be a professional trans ally. If your income depends on something you might defend it against all odds.
If stonewall changes tack they will lose funding and support.

Molokonono · 04/10/2018 12:10

Acceptance without exception.

Except...if you are a woman or girl.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 04/10/2018 12:11

Stonewall Trans Advisory Group = STAG. Stags are males.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 04/10/2018 12:13

Ruth might also have seen what happens to women who put a toe out of line & be scared of losing her job. Which I don't view as an excuse, by the way.

JoggerBottom · 04/10/2018 12:22

As previous posters have said: I don't understand what she means by 'right to exist'. Trans people exist, women exist, men exist, children exist etc, etc...
Does she mean 'do what they want'? Because I know of plenty of things that I can't just do whenever I want as a woman.

Discourse around this debate is ridiculous.

silentcrow · 04/10/2018 12:26

I find it interesting that this entire movement rests on telling a few central lies, such as: "There have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist." That isn't true, and Ruth Hunt knows it isn't true.

To quote the inimitable Jean Hatchet, prove it. Show me these articles that "question the right to exist". Because I haven't seen any. What I have seen is articles saying "this assertion about biology is provably untrue", "these statistics are incorrect", and most importantly " you may not overrule the rights of women".

In other words, you've been told no, and you just don't like it.

deepwatersolo · 04/10/2018 12:30

Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others.

Well, but if trans people have their right to force their fact-free ideology onto me, they have more rights than I do.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 12:31

Spectator article 'Don’t tell the parents: the official guidance to teachers of ‘trans children’
As in so many progressive ­schooling fads before it, children are the experts and ­teachers are just there to facilitate'
by Madeleine Kearns

concludes:
"What’s worrying is that anyone who challenges the new teaching on trans issues can find themselves in trouble. So when Victoria Atkins, the Minister for Women, admitted to being ‘a little cautious’ about teenage sex-changes, she was accused of bigotry. And Dr Kenneth Zucker, perhaps the leading authority on gender dysphoria in children, was recently ousted from his clinic in Toronto after being accused of ‘transphobia’ and supporting ‘conversion therapy’ because his 40 years’ experience and research had led him to the conclusion that affirming a child’s perceived gender can be counterproductive.

Many of these transgenderism training programmes are publicly funded. Last year, LGBT Youth Scotland received more than £1 million in grants, including £350,000 from the Scottish government, £160,000 from local authorities (all but one SNP-controlled), and £75,000 from Education Scotland. Mermaids UK, meanwhile, was granted £35,000 from the Department for Education and £128,000 from Children in Need.

Something is off here. Teachers are being asked to put ideology before evidence and to exclude parents from serious welfare decisions about their own children. Parents are often not allowed to take part in the discussion. Children are being asked to make important decisions about their gender, which is a surprisingly adult notion for many to grasp. What’s clear is that the issue of gender dysphoria in children is one of tremendous complexity, both medical and moral. To suggest otherwise — to children or teachers — is a dangerous mistake."

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/dont-tell-the-parents-official-guidance-to-teachers-of-trans-children/

OP posts:
OrchidInTheSun · 04/10/2018 12:34

Without trans rights, Stonewall has no purpose. No purpose, no funding, no charity. Ruth and her mates would be out of a job.

So she has to stick to the TWAW line - anything else would be shooting herself in the foot.

How a lesbian who only fucks other women can say that with a straight face though, god only knows.

ShotsFired · 04/10/2018 12:34

The more and more people like her try to answer a different question than the one they have actually been asked, the more ridiculous and untenable their position becomes.

I mean, that shit goes down well on AIBU, but in the real world, being so dishonest is not considered a noble debating tool.

DontCisgenderMe · 04/10/2018 12:36

Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others.

By that argument, not doing so would imply that they do not believe that women deserve the same rights as others.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/10/2018 12:37

They could also stop calling us transphobic for wanting a debate,

They could amend their examples of 'transphobic attitudes', the first two of which (not the rest, which are I think entirely or arguably valid) designed to gag women from talking the subject. Neither socialisation nor biology admissible, because they say so.Hmm

From https://www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/transgenderbooklett_2004.pdf

  • I can't c&p, it's in the section 'what is transphobia' ... and I think we can assume that the second point is also supposed to cover asserting that TW are not real women because do have, or were born with, a penis but they knew it was better to avoid that.
Fallingirl · 04/10/2018 12:38

I find this article, describing trans appropriations of womanhood as colonisation, really useful.

melaninandestrogen.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/the-colonization-of-womanhood/

It allows us to describe ourselves as indigenous women, and men imposing their idea of womanhood on to us, as colonisers. Using these terms are a really useful way of countering the claim that TWAW is the woke and progressive view.

Colonisation ahs never been woke and progressive, even though the language used by imperialist colonisers has always been that they are liberating the indigenous populations.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 12:39

Petition: 2,875 Signatures / Goal: 5,000

heresyandwitchcraft · 04/10/2018 12:42

This is pretty good actually - we now have proof that THEY are the ones refusing to talk, despite a reasonable approach from concerned individuals...
Bury your heads in the sand, Stonewall. But you cannot pretend these tensions are not reasonable or do not exist. No parent thinks it's acceptable to call Jacinta Brooks a woman and let them have unfettered access of the girls' changing room. Not one.