Lucy Bannerman in the Times "Trans movement has been hijacked by bullies and trolls"

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-movement-has-been-hijacked-by-bullies-and-trolls-lwl3s73vj?shareToken=fb77f832e38958413ff393fd4832a87f

RatRolyPoly
I don't know who all of those individuals are, or enough about them to say if they could be called "TRAs"

These are the people I mentioned: Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton, Shon Faye, Jane Fae, Paris Lees, Pippa Bunce, Alex Drummond, Karen White.

The whole point of this discussion is that you have to know about the individuals concerned, what their views are and how they fit into the wider picture. These people have all been written about on here (some of them post on here). I don't see how you can take part in a discussion challenging others' views if you don't know who they are. Google them and come back.

How can we be expected to take your views seriously if you don't even know anything about the issue? It seems as though you've stuck your fingers in your ears and refused to listen to anyone else while simultaneously shouting that you're right and we should listen to you.

And respond to MipMipMip. She wrote a long post, setting out in great detail exactly what you asked for and you can't be bothered to read her post, let alone reply. Although given that you prefer to shout 'I'm right' and not read up on the issue, I suppose nobody should be surprised.

I dunno, Lang, what's happened to this thread isn't an entirely terrible fit with the article's header...

Good thinking Lang.

Does anyone know of the times ever does open articles where people can read it rather than share tokens? I would imagine one like that would draw people in and they could end up subscribing.

And respond to MipMipMip. She wrote a long post, setting out in great detail exactly what you asked for and you can't be bothered to read her post, let alone reply.

If she can tell me it isn't goady, as her first line clearly is, I will happily do so. But I don't want to get into a barny with someone who isn't in good faith. I think that's reasonable.

I enjoy debating with you too Bowl! I wish I had more time right now because you make some really interesting points. Promise to come back to them :)

Yes, back to the article.

On Datun's point, you know, I quite like both Miranda and Fionn. Would happily go out for a drink with either of them, sit around watching telly, etc. Miranda and I have significant overlap in taste in music, so that's something in common, and Fionn's whole elf-y thing is weird in the sort of harmless way that I tend to find endearing.

Still don't want to get changed into my swimsuit in an open changing room with either of them, though, or share the communal showers. Just as would be the case with any other male who I'm not romantically involved with. If that's "hatred" or "bigotry" then I dunno what to tell you, other than possibly "get a grip".

Note the difference in my attitude towards them and towards the TRAs, though. It's almost as if GC women are perfectly capable of making distinctions between people based on behavior even while we stand firm on the principle of no males in spaces where there's female nudity.

AngryAttackKittens
I think Whittle has actually done far more harm than most TRAs.

I agree. Whittle is a lawyer who comes over as entirely reasonable. Whittle is somehow more dangerous because Whittle is not a man trying to invade female spaces. Whittle is however, still trying to make womanhood a place for fluffy-brained feminine people, by implying that Whittle's manly brain didn't belong in a female body.

Exactly. It's misogyny all the way down, even when it's coming from people who're female.

I agree AAK. I have bought Miranda a beer. I quite like him. I don't want Miranda in my toilets or spaces. Miranda and I went to the loo at the same time and went in different directions. Laughing about it.

I'm interested, up to a point, in why he has gender dysphoria. It has to be a sign of the times. And one that needs investigating.

But his own self analysis is what makes his opinions more acceptable.

But a man with gender dysphoria who blindly adopted the trappings of womanhood without wondering why, or how that's harmful to women, would find me disagreeing with them. Illness or no illness.

Cllr Jessica Lenox responding with the smug “it’s our room”. No it’s not. It’s the city’s room. For its citizens. The CIVIC Hall.

Absolutely fucking outrageous. So many of us ashamed of Leeds. Women prevented from using a public building. And told “it’s not yours”.

SHAME SHAME SHAME on Leeds City Council.

Is this person under the impression that the civic hall is their house? Because I'm pretty sure that's not part of the deal when you get elected.

Petty little tyrants.

I thought the article was very clear and it would not have been written a few months ago. I feel the way this ideology has taken hold so quickly may also fade away quickly too as it’s too extreme.

I think it’s a bit rich to not really know what you’re actually talking about and then chastise other people who do know what they’re talking about for talking about it ‘wrong’. I defy anyone to not have a strong opinion regarding Karen White and the women’s prison assuming they have read about it.

Stephen Whittle being proud of pushing through the gra without public knowledge is really quite troubling to me. It has set the precedent that becoming trans inclusive requires secrecy because everyone else is so bigoted they wouldn’t stand for it just because of plain old prejudice. This pattern plays on in Girl Guides, NSPCC, consultations on self ID and meetings to discuss self ID and everything else really.

Rat as you are determined to hear it from me rather than other posters I can confirm that my posrbwas not goady.

Disbelieving other, demanding someone speaks directly to you, sarcastically saying people should fill in something but they will piss people off etc are all goady as far as I'm concerned.

I will not be communicating with you again.

Due to various subcultural affiliations I've known a lot of GNC men. I'm totally comfortable with men in skirts, with makeup on, etc. Which always makes me wonder, what is it that's so upsetting to some people about a feminine man that they can only cope with his existence by slotting him into the "woman" category? Doesn't seem very progressive to me. Pretty damn sexist, actually.

I mean, I might point out to the person in question that what he's wearing doesn't suit him, but in a "that color washes you out/pink lacy dresses aren't office appropriate/that doesn't fit" way rather than a "please try to be more gender conforming so I can continue believing in regressive gender roles" way. The idea that people are walking up to GNC people of either sex and preemptively asking for their pronouns on the assumption that they must be trans is about the most othering thing I can think of.

Your post was very good actually Mip, it's such a shame you had to preface it by insulting the person you were aiming it at. If my having read that as a sign to protect myself from all-too-common attack is reason for you not to interact with me I have no problem with that at all.

Comment about the Bannerman article by Richard Garside:

Good discussion of the issues by TimesLucy I have encountered a number of senior criminal justice figures who fear a backlash if they speak up on transgender prisoners

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1046637034075553792

Just how did we get to a state where politicians (going by Kirkup's Spectator posts) and "senior criminal justice figures" are afraid to speak up and are leaving it to ordinary citizens who don't have anything like their privilege, connections, or protections?

Smelling very like the origins of totalitarianism.

A reply under Lucy's tweet-out of her article:

The moment you mention safeguarding for children, you expose yourself as a bigot.

twitter.com/pneawf/status/1046718964829687809

Yes, you did read that right.

Due to various subcultural affiliations I've known a lot of GNC men. I'm totally comfortable with men in skirts, with makeup on, etc. Which always makes me wonder, what is it that's so upsetting to some people about a feminine man that they can only cope with his existence by slotting him into the "woman" category? Doesn't seem very progressive to me. Pretty damn sexist, actually.

Same here.

I find it interesting that the idiom "I'll bite," is something you find to be goady, Rat. I have used it often and others have said it to me, and while it certainly can be part of a snide response it generally just indicates "OK, no one else has addressed this and so I'll take it upon myself to do so."

I mean, I get that you are usually arguing against a lot of people at once and that this will make just about anyone a little touchy about phrasing, but truly I can not see how "I'll bite" is an indication of goadiness.

The comments! I feel so heartened when I see so many different voices of both sexes all saying the same thing, and sending the try-hard TRAs away with a flea in their ear.

It isn't just us. We are not alone. When people see the facts, they agree.

The moment you mention safeguarding for children, you expose yourself as a bigot

cor

somebody does not understand what safeguarding means

or does not see measures to prevent the abuse of children as something worth defending

The moment you mention safeguarding for children, you expose yourself as a bigot

Jesus.

I almost joined twitter to ask him which of those was the case!!!!

The moment you mention safeguarding for children, you expose yourself as a bigot.

Excuse me for a moment while I piece the shattered bits of my jaw, which just fell on the floor, back together.

You know that Maya Angelou quote about believing people when they show you who they are? Yeah, that.

That was a cracking, no-holds-barred and timely article from Lucy B.

It was right to distinguish between activists and the trans people with whom there needs to be a grown up discussion.

I told my MP that I placed the blame for the rise of gender extremists at the door of the all-party Parliamentary Committee on Transgender Equality and on successive Conservative Equalities Ministers. Even the Prime Minister announced that TWAW and that there was to be no debate on their status, and no room for discussion.

Politicians set the tone. Their position encouraged extremists to brand opponents as hate-filled transphobes. I applaud Lucy B for describing where that misjudged tone and bizarre words have led us.