Go on then, see if you can peak trans me...

[Rightlikeagirl]

I've come across so many of these threads at the moment on mumsnet and I'm interested/intrigued in them because I have never seen trans women (or men) as a problem. They don't affect my day to day life at all. In fact I don't believe I've ever met a trans woman in real life, that I know of anyway.

I'm struggling to understand why it makes women so angry and also why men seem to be so universally hated on here in general. I've just been reading a thread about how they fear women and how they fear them having a voice and doing better than them. This just does not ring true for me - the men I know I just not like this!

Anyway I'm prepared to listen and find out more about this subject. I don't think you will actually peak trans me though...

@CottonTailRabbit that's a really clear response explaining your views thanks. It makes a lot of sense to me

I take it you don‘t do competitive sports or compete for scholarships or think you‘ll ever need protection from male violence in a woman‘s shelter or that you might ever be exposed to a prison setting, where a violent male might intimidate you, nor do you have a child you may not want to expose to the kinks of a Jess Bradley in a, say, changing room. Oh, and you only care about yourself. That sums it up, I guess. The people not giving a shit until something affected them personally - which they never thought it would - are legion. Oh well.

Image too shocking so we use Sandy's drawing.

Women transitioning to men have sections of their skin removed from arms and / or thighs to create pseudo-penises. It has to be quite deeply removed, and is almost to the bone.

We are creating a climate in which toxic masculinity is so horrific for girls that teenagers cannot cope with puberty and are told the solution to the problem is not to address boys/men's behaviour towards women and girls, but to become a boy/man to make it stop.

I know exactly why so many young women don't want to be young women, but is this the answer?

Of course while more non-conforming women transition, it leaves the remaining non-conformers with less support from their peers.

Basically Stepford Wives or transition. No middle ground.

@FusionChefGeoff yes it is frustrating. I'm possibly being naive in thinking the way I do but the alternative is way to depressing for me!

I do believe the lady has peak transed!

I know two "old fashioned" trans women and they have both said this new generation of trans activists is harming them. Because there is increasingly no way to "quietly transition".

I think the only way to protect them and people like them is to fight self-ID which makes it impossible to distinguish between "true" transgender people with gender dysphoria and this new generation of trans activists who seem to be utterly trapped in a rigid construct of gender roles and intent not on passing and keeping their heads down but demanding access to women's separate spaces, scholarships, all women shortlists, sports.

The solution for the people who want to quietly transition is the same as it ever was. Dress how you like. If people realise you want to be addressed as a woman they will mostly be kind enough to go along with it. Don't expect it though and don't get mad if they call you "sir". Don't attempt to access women only spaces.

My friend's child spends a lot of time dressed as a pirate. I always address her as "me hearty!" when she's in pirate garb. She's not allowed to pillage my house though (not that she ever would try).

For me, it’s quite simple. My priority is maintaining existing women’s rights whilst also fighting to get full equal opportunity for all women. The changes proposed as far as self ID goes, would remove existing rights women have in law.

I am also prioritising the rights of women to set boundaries and to maintain sex separated spaces. Both for our comfort and our safety. My teenage daughter doesn’t want to get changed next to Male bodies and neither do I. I get the shakes just going to the doctor. I am a victim of many sexual assaults, the first at aged 11. I told my school principal and he screamed at me and threatened me with police action. So in the 30 something years since then, which include more harassment and assaults, more disrespect from doctors over my hormone problems... I have developed what I think is an understandable and natural fear of males I do not know in spaces typically reserved for women or girls. I also can only have female doctors performing intimate examinations. None of my feelings are born of ‘bigotry’ at all. I don’t care how others dress, what their interests are etc i don’t think clothes or make up or thoughts in someone’s head, make someone male or female. I find that idea incredibly sexist and outdated, unhelpful for both girls and boys. I believe in observable material reality. If others do not, that’s their prerogative. But we have to set down some basic facts about human beings based on observable biological reality. It does not mean a trans person is ‘less than’ or should be treated badly. But I will not have ideology forced on me, nor will I sit quiet as my rights are eroded and males force their way into my spaces. It’s simply not fair to ask more of women. I’ve had so much freedom taken from me already. By males.

By true transgender people, you know that the Trans Demanders call these people Truscum right?

Oh, and I also bring up a son. And if he should ever feel compelled to transition, I will be damned if he doesn‘t do it clear eyed. It is clearly possible, and rational transsexuals exist, including rational autogynephiles (e. g. Anne Lawrence).

This picture peak trans’d me. And I’m not even into sport. It was just the plain injustice of it.

And also to fight against the concept that being trans is nothing to do with doctors and demedicalise the process. This results in mental health support being stripped away and people thinking "coming out as trans" is like coming out as gay. It isn't.

The medical effects on children are absolutely hair raising, permanent and irreversible. From the American College of Paediatricians: www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children

"Just that the issue with trans women for many is that they are in fact men."

So you think that some people have issues with the current trans ideology because they hate men? Seriously? Not sure where to start with that one.

Don't you think yourself more than a non-man?

Just that the issue with trans women for many is that they are in fact men.

No, it’s the issue that they insist they are biological women and that they insist everyone agree with them.

Here's an excellent quote.

"I can imagine no greater act of male entitlement than for a man to say: 'I AM A WOMAN AND IF YOU SAY THAT I'M NOT THEN YOU ARE A BIGOT' "

-Michael Conroy.
(A man)

Thing is, it is impossible to untangle. Because a law was made so that transsexuals weren't discriminated against.

It has been used to crush women because abusive men jumped on when they realised that they could 'be' victims and gain sympathy for their narcissism.

Many 'genuine' trans people are horrified because of this, and the fact that people who used to 'live and let live' had enough of the abuse they got when they pointed out that rapists should not be in women's prisons etc...and now say 'look, it is impossible to change sex, so lets just stick to that as a classification'.

WRT socialisation - My DS has just started school. Before summer, he used to like all the colours. He used to say that pink was one of his favourite colours. Now, he hates pink and purple. Because they are girl colours he says.

This has happened over a matter of weeks.

The funny thing is, I could kind of believe that he'd gone from liking pink and purple to hating them. But we've just found out that he's colourblind. And one of the colours he tends to struggle with is pink, because to him it looks the same as how blue looks like to him.

He doesn't hate pink because of how it looks, because he sees it differently to us. He hates it because it's a girls colour, and he's a boy.

I didn't teach him that, he's always played with toys of all colours, especially having an older sister. But it's already started, within weeks of him starting school. Boys v girls, pink v blue.

Rightlikeagirl

Here is the break it down for me thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Give yourself a few minutes to contemplate an environment where sex categories don't legally exist. But still exist biologically.

All the disadvantages that women have, which we address, suddenly can't be addressed.

For instance, Karen White a male rapist and paedophile who was incarcerated in a female prison where they attacked four women. Karen has just been convicted. The sex segregation that addresses women's physical disadvantage doesn't exist if men can be women.

Any man. Karen isn't trans. Karen is a drag queen. (And had form for attacking vulnerable women who couldn't escape!)

Men can be lesbians. With girl dicks. Stonewall agrees. And lesbians are transphobic for not including them.

There are so many different scenarios that the only way to understand is to read.

And make no mistake your children stand every chance of being taught this st school.

In addition and quite apart from the lessons in gender, inclusivity and what constitutes hate speech, children everywhere are given subliminal messages about stereotyping.

It's admirable that you're actively looking out for your sons but the messages will be coming externally.

An excellent example is the BBC programme No More Girls and Boys. Where by age seven the only emotion boys could articulate was anger and the only thing girls thought they did better than boys was 'look pretty'.

It's an eye opener. All these adults saying they treat the kids the same being utterly shocked when their behaviour is analysed.

The programme is nothing to do with transitioning. Except to show exactly how we inadvertently enforce gender.

ubercorntheunicorn

Watch the programme I mentioned.

Then see if you can get the head to do so.

*I want nice, genuine people to feel happy and safe and idiots and horrible and evil people to lose their rights but then that's very simplistic and the world isn't like that.

I guess I'm just wondering what is the solution for the poor people that just want to "quietly transition" as a PP put it*

Self ID will mean that those genuine people you refer to will lose their rights to safe spaces (when they have been using women's spaces all along) and also to proper medical care (amongst other things, individuals will be pushed along the path to transition instead of receiving proper and rigorous counselling as a first resort).

Here is an account from a group of concerned transwomen, some of whom post here.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights

The programme is nothing to do with transitioning. Except to show exactly how we inadvertently enforce gender.

I think this is very heavily linked to why people transition though isn't it. It's the social conditioning from birth

Thanks@Datun I will read that thread

Will come back to this thread later to read any replies. Need to put phone down now

People who want to quietly and genuinely transition because of medically diagnosed dysmorphia already can do so and have been doing so for years. This whole thing will probably also backfire on them.

Ooops. Missed a whole page of the thread when responding.

Hi Rightlikeagirl I had two peak trans moments that I remember.

1. Hearing that trans activists were complaining about transphobia because feminists equated being female with having female anatomy during the 2017 Women's March - and the feminists caved, apologised and agreed to centre males in their feminism.

2. Reading about the cotton ceiling - which is so ridiculous I thought it was a joke at first.

Another thing I initially thought was a joke was the Human Rights Campaign's decision to refer to natural vaginas as 'front holes' while post-op transwomen get the word vagina. It wasn't a joke.