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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shocking levels of transphobia

325 replies

Semp · 29/09/2018 01:40

I have been lurking here for a while and reading through the posts on a daily basis. I am truly shocked with the levels of transphobia that exist on this board. I have read what has been posted and the arguments that have been put across against the reform of the Gender Recognition Act; and all I see are the same arguments that have been used in the past when it came to changes in the laws relating to any other minority. That being that predators will exploit this change to abuse women/girls, yet everytime this has happened in the past the claims that they would did not come to fruition.

I can see no change as to how things would be any different with this change. As now things currently stand trans women can already use womens toilets, are put on ladies wards in hospitals when getting treatment, can use female changing facilities in swimming baths and so on. This has been happening for decades and Armageddon hasn't happened.

There are many other areas of life that this energy could be and should be directed at, which would make a huge difference to the lives of women. Without victimizing and stigmatizing a minority group that already suffers enough as it is.

OP posts:
VickyEadie · 29/09/2018 15:39

Protection of minorities is a key feature of both modern democracy and human rights.

In this context, women and children both constitute "minorities" whose rights are under threat from a much smaller "minority" who are demanding the right to demolish the rights of these two massive groups.

It's quite staggering how many people - especially women - cannot see that.

BeyondAdultHumanFemale · 29/09/2018 15:47

But but but, what about the ^advanced biology ...?

CharlieParley · 29/09/2018 15:47

For all of the lurkers out there:

Please be advised that intersex people have not only asked for their complex medical conditions not to be used to prop up trans identities, as other posters have already stated above, but also that the views expressed by Semp in their second post about intersex people is an example of interphobia.

Interphobia is the othering of people who experience differences in sex development due to complex medical reasons.

All intersex people are either male or female.

There is neither a spectrum of sex on a sliding scale between male and female nor is there a third (ie other) category of sex.

For anyone who wishes to know more, here is an excellent explainer by an intersex advocate (from Twitter):

Right, we’re still struggling with the idea that there’s only two sex classes and that intersex people do not prove the ability to change sex, or do not exist on a spectrum. So, let’s look at sex determination and differentiation (thread)…

Sex is determined at the point of conception. This is known as primary (or gonadal) sex. In mammals, primary sex determination is chromosomal. In most cases, the female is XX and the male is XY. Every individual must have at least one X chromosome.

These chromosomes then dictate development. The presence of a Y chromosome is a crucial factor for determining sex in mammals as it carries a gene that encodes a testis-determining factor. In other words, it tells the gonads to develop into testis rather than ovaries.

To be really clear about this, even a person with XXXXY chromosomes would be male because of the Y. Someone with only one X (XO) chromosome would still be female and their body would begin making ovaries (although they would not develop fully as the second X chromosome is needed)

From this we move onto secondary sex determination, or sex differentiation. Secondary sex determination affects the bodily phenotype outside the gonads. A male mammal has a penis, seminal vesicles, and prostate gland.

A female mammal has a vagina, cervix, uterus, oviducts, and mammary glands. In many species, each sex has a sex-specific size, vocal cartilage (aka Adam’s apple), and musculature.

These secondary sex characteristics are usually determined by hormones secreted from the gonads. However, in the absence of gonads, the female phenotype is generated.

If the Y chromosome is absent, the gonadal primordia develop into ovaries. The ovaries produce oestrogen, a hormone that enables the development of the Müllerian duct into the uterus, oviducts, and upper end of the vagina.

If the Y chromosome is present, testes form and secrete two major hormones. The first, AMH, destroys the Müllerian duct. The second hormone, testosterone, masculinizes the foetus, stimulating the formation of the penis, scrotum, and other portions of the male anatomy,

This also inhibits the development of the breast primordia. Thus, the body has the female phenotype unless it is changed by the two hormones secreted by the foetal testes.

Now, I know someone will be quick to pop up and say, “but MRKH, there are XX males and XY females), this is where the SRY gene (sex-determining region of the Y chromosome) comes into play, so let me explain….

The major gene for the testis-determining factor resides on the short arm of the Y chromosome. Individuals who are born with the short arm but not the long arm of the Y chromosome are male, while individuals born with the long arm but not the short arm are female.

Right on the end of the short arm of the short arm is where we find the SRY gene. This gene is called SRY, and there is extensive evidence that it is indeed the gene that encodes the human testis-determining factor.

SRY is found in normal XY males and in the rare XX males, and it is absent from normal XX females and from many XY females. Another important gene in sex determination is SOX9. XX humans who have an extra copy of SOX9 develop as males, even though they have no SRY gene.

Secondary sex determination in mammals also involves the development of the female and male phenotypes in response to hormones secreted by the ovaries and testes. The formation of the male phenotype involves the secretion of two testicular hormones.

The first of these hormones is AMH, the hormone that causes the degeneration of the Müllerian duct. The second is the steroid testosterone. This hormone causes the urogenital swellings to develop into the scrotum and penis.

The existence of these two independent systems of masculinisation is demonstrated by people having AIS. These XY individuals have the SRY gene, and thus have testes that make testosterone and AMH.

However, they lack the testosterone receptor protein, and therefore cannot respond to the testosterone made by their testes. Because they are able to respond to estrogen made in their adrenal glands, they develop the female phenotype.

However, despite their distinctly female appearance, these individuals do have testes, and even though they cannot respond to testosterone, they produce and respond to AMH. Thus, their Müllerian ducts degenerate.

These people develop as normal but sterile women, lacking a uterus and oviducts and having testes in the abdomen.

In summary, because this is a long enough thread, primary sex is determined at conception, the foetus then follows one of several differential routes. This may be a complicated process with lots of variables, but it does not a sex spectrum make.

We’re all just male or female, this is decided before we are even born, and science is able to explain it and categorise us accordingly. The end.

If you want to read about this in more detail, I recommend this paper (it's long but fascinating)

And also this paper, which is quite technical and heavy going but has links to lots of other research and some handy illustrations.

BeyondAdultHumanFemale · 29/09/2018 15:47

Stupid autoformatting

VickyEadie · 29/09/2018 15:52

I saw someone claiming today that 'lots of women have Y chromosomes and still give birth'...

BeyondAdultHumanFemale · 29/09/2018 15:52

I assume they mean the ones that give birth to boys? Confused

SophoclesTheFox · 29/09/2018 16:03

I saw someone claiming today that 'lots of women have Y chromosomes and still give birth'...

Oh good lord, what?

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 29/09/2018 16:07

I know Intersex is different to trans, and all Intersex people are in fact one sex or the other, but if you had grown up looking externally female with hidden testes, and because of this had been brought up as female, would it be fair to say that in terms of socialisation you are female?
So, if an Intersex person in that situation decided they are a woman not a man I wouldn't argue with that.
Or have I misunderstood something?

VickyEadie · 29/09/2018 16:09

So, if an Intersex person in that situation decided they are a woman not a man I wouldn't argue with that.

Depends - do they want to compete in women's track races?

LittleMissedTheSunshine · 29/09/2018 16:10

Are they talking about the y chromosomes in the male foetus, as that's the only way a woman with y chromosomes could give birth.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/09/2018 16:11

You're a gift, Semp. You may be puzzled by my statement, but I'll explain why you're a gift.

We know there are lots of lurkers on this board. And every time someone starts a thread saying how transphobic we all are it gives FWR regulars an ideal opportunity to set out the logical and ethically sound arguments as to why the struggle against gender ideology is pro women and children rather than anti trans.

You may not take a blind bit of notice of our comments but we know that thousands of lurkers are reading. We're talking to the lurkers.

Traffic to the Feminism board has increased in the last two years from 15,000 in June 2016 to 177,000 in June 2018. That's just a month's figures, and it demonstrates how much interest there is.

Your second post contains numerous factual inaccuracies. We know the facts and can provide links from reputable sources to support our claims. Every reader who checks these facts is assured that we have a solid basis for what we're saying.

There's rarely any hatred of trans people here - if it's seen it's reported. We occasionally get malicious new posters who make transphobic comments purely to create screenshots to "prove" MN is transphobic. They are reported and usually banned very quickly.

I do not believe men who identify as women are women. They remain men. There's nothing wrong with being a man, but I don't think they belong in women's sex segregated spaces.

That simple statement: that people can't change sex and that men pose a risk to naked or otherwise vulnerable women is not anti trans. It's factual.

Being accused of transphobia has become meaningless. Water off a duck's back. Just saying TW are male qualifies. I give zero fucks at this point.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 29/09/2018 16:29

I don't know Lang. There was a model-forget the name-who had had undescended testes removed soon after birth I think. She looks like a girl-I'm not sure if she had always known she had an Intersex condition. I can't help thinking that even if she is technically male, she looks female and has been socialised female from birth.
It must be pretty confusing for people in that situation and it's a shame that their medical issues get used in this debate but there being 2 sexes (fact) doesn't take away from how complex the intersex situation can be.
I appreciate they are a tiny minority though. I would like to read more about the condition because it's fascinating.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 29/09/2018 16:31

Gah! Not Lang
Vicky! Sorry.

ScienceIsTruth · 29/09/2018 16:35

No one I've seen here is transphobic. We are against women's rights being eroded. We speak about truth and reality.

Datun · 29/09/2018 16:36

OP,

If an intersex person looks entirely female, from birth and has been socialised as such, I don't think anyone gives the smallest toss if they use the female facilities. (Sport might be different if they have a testosterone advantage.)

But it's typical for trans demands activists to use it as a gotcha. It's playground level debate. Along the lines of made you look, made you stare...

And just for the record, middle-aged, middle-class white men are not a minority.

Trinity1976 · 29/09/2018 16:43

The richest 1% are a minority. Should we protect them too?

PurpleCrowbar · 29/09/2018 16:47

'Between XX & XY' is an interesting & thought provoking read, IfNotNow. It's by Gerald N Callan.

Not all that relevant to this debate because, as has been pointed out, people with DSD are really quite fucked off with TRAs appropriating them, but fascinating! Smile

ShotsFired · 29/09/2018 16:47

Semp Calling Trans women men is a blatant example of transphobia

Well, no. It's a blatant example of you crying transphobia just because you don't agree with biology, unlike the rest of the intelligent living world.

If that's how we are making stuff up, then I think you are womanphobic.
And probably manphobic too. Seeing as you don't like women and you don't want men to be men.

PurpleCrowbar · 29/09/2018 16:48

Callahan, sorry. Autocucumber!

MaisyPops · 29/09/2018 16:55

ShotsFired
It depends though.

I dont believe you can change biological sex, but calling a transwoman he and a man out of principle in normal conversation when they've been post-op for 5 years and clearly have gone through the required medical processes would seem like a dick move to me. It's needlessly unkind.

On the other hand, saying that woman-identifying Dave with his penis and eyeliner is quite clearly biologically male and putting a biological male in a dress doesn't make a woman is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Hyppolyta · 29/09/2018 16:57

I disagree.

I think expecting me to lie and say man is a woman because he had some surgery is unkind.

A woman is not someone who had surgery, or filled forms out. That is not the definition of woman.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 29/09/2018 16:59

Grin thanks Purple
Not wanting to derail. I agree with what Datun said I think.
After all, being treated like a girl since birth is part of what makes us women.

Something middle aged married fathers can't really appropriate by wearing pink dresses!

ShotsFired · 29/09/2018 17:00

Tbh Maisy, had this discussion been x years, or even x months ago, I'd have been accommodating like your POV too.

But no more. The TRAs have fucked it up for all trans people now. That's their fault, not mine. I gave kindness and compromise and was threatened with rape and death for not giving everything.

Being kind got us where we are now.

FesteringCarbuncle · 29/09/2018 17:01

The idea of innate gender doesn't make sense
Gender roles change over time and place. There is not a single set of likes/mannerisms that can be attributed to women.
All the accounts I have read, and there are many, demonstrate transness using external sources. For example, we knew he was a girl when he reached for the pink sippy cup. She wanted a pirate party not a princess party. He undid the poppers on his babygro to make it into a dress
It is never explained how the infant knows that dress means girl or that girls are typically dressed in pink. Only 50 years ago they were dressed in blue.
All these are true accounts and imo examples of parents who have strict internal beliefs about what boys and girls should like and do

groundcontroltomontydon · 29/09/2018 17:02

O pointy birds
O pointy pointy
Anoint my head
Anointy nointy
By John Lillison, England's most famous one-armed poet
For IfNotNowThenWhen1