Shocking levels of transphobia

[Semp]

I have been lurking here for a while and reading through the posts on a daily basis. I am truly shocked with the levels of transphobia that exist on this board. I have read what has been posted and the arguments that have been put across against the reform of the Gender Recognition Act; and all I see are the same arguments that have been used in the past when it came to changes in the laws relating to any other minority. That being that predators will exploit this change to abuse women/girls, yet everytime this has happened in the past the claims that they would did not come to fruition.

I can see no change as to how things would be any different with this change. As now things currently stand trans women can already use womens toilets, are put on ladies wards in hospitals when getting treatment, can use female changing facilities in swimming baths and so on. This has been happening for decades and Armageddon hasn't happened.

There are many other areas of life that this energy could be and should be directed at, which would make a huge difference to the lives of women. Without victimizing and stigmatizing a minority group that already suffers enough as it is.

ShotsFired
I have no time for TRAs. They are hate filled misogynists who are systematically trying to fuck things up for women and genuine transwoman experiencing dysphoria.

Personally, I want to keep holding that distinction between people with dysphoria who transition to alleviate their dysphoria and the militant TRAs for as long as possible as I think TRAs are bad news for everyone other than men who love their dicks.

This idea that you can cause upset or offense by calling someone 'he' really needs nipping in the bud.

No, in real life I wouldn't walk up to a trans woman and call them a man. But we are at a point in society where calling a trans woman 'him' is the most offensive thing possible and it's absurd. Middle aged men are not oppressed. Calling a man 'him' is a neutral act grounded in reality.

Where is the same concern for rape victims or disabled people suffering under the Tories or anyone else actually genuinely struggling?

Personally, I want to keep holding that distinction between people with dysphoria who transition to alleviate their dysphoria and the militant TRAs

I think true, severe gender dysphoria is so exceptionally rare, most people will never come across it in their lifetimes

Then lets take the toilet issue; where there is a clear misunderstanding of the law in the UK over the issue. Most of the posts here seam to think that there is some kind of law that governs the use of them and that only female's can use the female toilet and only males the males. Yet this is completely wrong, in the UK there are no laws governing this. So self-ID would not change this one bit, as effectively this is what already happens and we do not have an epidemic of men going in to womens toilets and sexually assaulting females in toilets.

So why... do you think...are so many TRAs hell bent on getting Self ID passed?

Thank you for your very informative post @CharlieParley.

I love it when people argue with actual proper, well researched facts.

Let's not take the toilet issue. It's an issue that can be solved by throwing money at it.

Let's take sport. From the age of around 12-perhaps younger- boys outperform girls in most sports. Look st the sporting records of any secondary school- the boys ones are faster, higher, longer than the girls. In America, college places intended for elite sports women have already been taken by self IDing transwomen. Some people say sport is s trivial matter- but this is an area where self ID has already had a significant impact on the lives of natal women.

In 99% of situations, it is perfectly ky possible to reach a working compromise between the rights of trans and non trans women. In 1% it isn't. And it's that 1% we need to be talking about.

Gender dysphoria is real. And incredibly rare.

There's a huge difference between going up to a transwoman calling them he or saying you're a man, and acknowledging transwomen are men in terms of this debate.

I think that's something we can all agree on.

But, for me, and I think a lot of women, the conditions under which I will be polite, are becoming fewer and fewer (less?)

Partly because it's what got us into this problem in the first place but also because is becoming increasingly more important to acknowledge that transwomen are men.

Sometimes because of the issue of risk assessment, but also to expose the bullying that ensues if you don't.

It's also incredibly important to understand that everyone gets that these people are men. Because then their behaviour takes on a completely different complexion.

It's not to be mean, or exacerbate their gender dysphoria. Because, let's face it, most of them don't even have it. Transactivists will engage with feminists all the live long day. They know we are going to call them men. They don't run screaming from the room. They just tell you they're going to run screaming from the room.

There is also the matter of if you agree that transwomen are women, you are buying into the reasons for gender dysphoria in the first place. Toxic masculinity.

I'm sure not everyone thinks like me. And we all have our own line in the sand.

But certainly, bullying, misogynistic men are acting like men everywhere.

bullying, misogynistic men are acting like men everywhere.

YY.

Most TRAs: I'm a woman! How dare you say I'm not!

Most TRAs: behave completely and entirely like the worst, most toxic examples of men.

I'm sure not everyone thinks like me. And we all have our own line in the sand.
But certainly, bullying, misogynistic men are acting like men everywhere.
I agree.

In terms of wider debate, this is what needs highlighting.
In many respects, self ID isn't about trans people at all. It's about trying to change the law to explicitly facilitate predatory men gaining access to women and telling women to shut up.
It's appropriating a very real struggle for some (gender dysphoria) and turning it into a scarf you can take on and off. Today I'm a woman. Tomorrow I'm not. I can be a woman if I say so.

This is Mike. Mike beat his girlfriend last night and tried to rape her. Under self ID Mike can demand access Go to the refuge his girlfriend is staying in.

This is Simon. Simon knows that it's not really the done thing to flash your dick at people and you'd get arrested. Simon gets a kick out of it. Under self ID Simon can parade around butt naked hellicoptering his willy in women's changing rooms and know he is untouchable if he claims it's a lady penis.

Neither of those 2 people are trans. Both are predatory misogynist.

It doesn't matter where people sit on the gender critical/trans debate really. Most people would argue that those two situations shouldn't be enabled by the law.

That's a lovely poem (or Poim as my English teacher used to say ) groundcontroltomontydon..but..why?!

MaisyPops

Brilliantly put.

It's true vicky.

I know I'm probably not a radical enough feminist for some in FWR, but really whether you hold gender critical views or not, self ID is a safeguarding issue.

It's not a safeguarding issue because trans people are horrible. Trans really doesn't have to come into it (and in my opinion its best it doesnt for the purpose of explaining the issues with self ID).
It's a safeguarding issue because it allows predatory men to demand access to women's spaces.

Most men don't molest children. But if you were the sort of man who does, self ID allows you to claim to be a woman and be in dorm rooms with young girls.

Why is it that some of those convicted of sexual offences against women suddenly decide to self ID as a woman to get into women's prisons? Because it gives them access to women. They aren't trans at all. They are appropriating the struggles of trans people when it suits them to gain access to women.

I was wondering that, ifnot.

It's a lovely po-yum (as my dad would say )

Personally, I want to keep holding that distinction between people with dysphoria who transition to alleviate their dysphoria and the militant TRAs

The position I have reached is that there is no way to draw this line that the aggressive misogynists sans dysphoria will not endlessly push at and, in so doing, take up women's time that would be better spent elsewhere. We budged up for the nice ones but it wasn't the end of it and continued budging up will ensure there is never an end to it.

The answer? Campaign to make men budge up and at least accommodate safely, if not welcome, their non-conforming, feminine brethren.

I'm no longer putting any males before any females. End of.

It's a safeguarding issue because it allows predatory men to demand access to women's spaces.

Correct. Anyone who argues should be repeatedly countered with 'So why don't we allow ALL men in there, then?' There's some sort of implied notion that calling yourself 'trans' automatically sprinkles magic, benign pixie dust on a bloke.

Most TRAs: I'm a woman! How dare you say I'm not!

Most TRAs: behave completely and entirely like the worst, most toxic examples of men.

Absolutely, Vicky. They don't just behave like men. They behave exactly like the worst type of man to be allowed anywhere near naked or otherwise vulnerable women.

I can think of a number of prominent TRAs who I would not want to be alone with. They're scary woman-hating bastards.

I notice how differently they come across compared to the transsexuals who know they're not women but at least try to identify with women - to understand our concerns. They notice their male socialization and try to remove or dim it. This group were accepted in the ladies because they made a big effort to fit in, fade into the background, and never make women feel awkward.

Anyone who argues should be repeatedly countered with 'So why don't we allow ALL men in there, then?' There's some sort of implied notion that calling yourself 'trans' automatically sprinkles magic, benign pixie dust on a bloke.
Agreed.
If we're going to have self ID and let men get their knobs out left, right and centre then make all spaces unisex.
But somehow I don't think predatory men would like that because it wouldn't give them access to a load of women on their own and other men would probably tell them to put their knobs away.

(I'm not seriously suggesting it by the way. I'm thinking aloud because I don't think TRAs would be happy if all spaces became unisex)

I can think of a number of prominent TRAs who I would not want to be alone with. They're scary woman-hating bastards.

Yes. The ones who aren't trans themselves included.

Has OP provided any examples of this alleged transphobia yet?

It was the Man With Two Brains reference, I got sidetracked

Do they ever, perverse?

It's always a plop-and-run tactic.

"you're SO transphobic" is an insult the way that "you're such a TORY" was when I was growing up in the 1980s in small town Scotland. It doesn't mean anything other than "Euwww you're a poopyhead and I hate you!".

Love your username by the way, groundcontrol

Anyone suggesting that our brains are gendered can quite honestly go take a flying leap. Zero critical thought there.

I need to watch that film again!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=nU4RD2f2BnY

Calling Trans women men is a blatant example of transphobia

It's not.

It's objectively the truth. It's subjectively offensive to a few. Your demand to be obeyed, your framing truth as something that must not be spoken, is too fucking scary to care about being kind or polite any more. Your determination to silence it, to stamp it out, shows utter disrespect for anyone's perceptions, feelings, needs but your own. That ends the social contract. Why should women respect people with zero respect for them?

Trans people's feelings are not more important than women's rights. You will never stop me speaking that truth, you will never force me to obey. If this becomes law, you will never stop me and many other women speaking that truth because it will be a wrong, appalling misuse of law.