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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Girl guiding email to parents.

677 replies

Wildboar · 25/09/2018 18:36

Has anyone seen the mass email sent out this evening? They haven’t acknowledged any concerns put to them. All they have stated that there is no risk and they won’t inform parents of transgender members due to data protection laws.

OP posts:
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Elephantinacravat · 26/09/2018 11:47

@Elephantinacravat there is never any time when we would force someone to get changed where they were uncomfortable in Scouts where we have mixed genders and I don't see how it would be different in Guides. On camp if we went swimming we would tell the kids to get their kit, some changed in the tents before they left, others used a towel on the beach. If we had access to gendered changing facilities I imagine some would change in front of others and some would use cubicles depending on what they were comfortable with just like we did when I was a child. If anyone is uncomfortable in any way then provision would always be made to make sure they can join in. That's what being inclusive is about.

But presumably in Scouts there are separate changing areas segregated by sex. For example, boys and girls wouldn't be getting ready for bed together?

When you say 'if anyone is uncomfortable we would make provision to join in' are you saying that a girl who was uncomfortable changing in a tent with a male bodied trans person would have to go elsewhere? That special provision would have to be made for her so as to be inclusive of the person with the male body? In an organisation meant for females?

And please don't use gender when you mean sex. Changing rooms etc are segregated by sex not gender.

VickyEadie · 26/09/2018 11:47

WittyName4

slightly different

FFS! SLIGHTLY different!

Elephantinacravat · 26/09/2018 11:48

Just because they now accept girls who are slightly different to other girls I don't see why these should need to change.

When you say 'slightly different' you mean of the opposite sex here don't you. Let's be real about this.

FloralBunting · 26/09/2018 11:49

If the presence of a penis is neither here nor there, then the Guides need to stop the pretence that they think there is anything to be gained by using the single sex exceptions in law to exclude any person with a penis at all.

If penis owning people are irrelevant in an 'all-girl' organization, they have no justification for excluding any penis owner at all. The 'single gender' idea is entirely untenable and should frankly be challenged as unjustifiably discriminatory in the courts if need be.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2018 11:49

Theorectically speaking as it stands, a Muslim girl in Scouts could be afforded more privacy and dignity than in guides under the Guides policy.

WittyName4 · 26/09/2018 11:55

@howlsmovingcastle84 yes, I would be happy for her to share a tent with a boy. She shared one with three boys and two girls on her last camp and great fun was had by all. I haven't taught her to be afraid of men, I've taught her that she is in every way their equal.

AmyRhodes · 26/09/2018 12:00

@gendercritter

"a) teenagers are full of hormones and will have sex on occasion on overnight trips"

You're right - ALL teenagers are full of hormones and will on occasion have sex on overnight trips. It is the job of guide leaders to safeguard all children from underage sexual activity, regardless of sex, gender or orientation. Whether or not your daughter has sex or gets pregnant is ALWAYS subject to safeguards working and if you don't put your faith in safeguards, you're going to have to put her under lock and key.

"b) some males are unfortunately predatory whether they're trans or not"

Again, you're right - but so are SOME females. Should we ban all girls from GG? We have to accept that SOME PEOPLE are predatory and we have to focus our energies on identifying predatory individuals rather than ostracising entire groups.

"c)most teenage girls very much value girl only spaces, and need and want privacy at certain times such as when they're showering, changing and sleeping."

Agree about privacy. Every individual has a right to privacy and bodily autonomy. This is a very modern challenge and once again, if you refuse to put any faith in safeguards you will have to shut up your daughters. Is there any evidence that "fake" trans girls are using female spaces to engage in sexual activity more frequently than "natal" girls are having sex with (and sometimes preying on) other girls in these spaces?

Wannabeyorkshirelass · 26/09/2018 12:00

I'm a foster carer. I won't be able to let my fostered daughter go to the sleepovers with all her friends now. I am already very restricted both by the rules for foster carers and by her specific care needs for her abusive background on where she's allowed to go for overnights but Brownies has been allowed as it's single sex. With this news, I cannot take the risk that I am putting her into an environment where she's sleeping over with boys.

Thanks, Girl Guides, for ruining this. Thanks for including the trans boys at the expense of the foster girls, Muslim girls and any other girls who can't or don't want to share mixed-sex sleeping and washing facilities. Thanks a lot, I hope you're fucking proud of yourselves. :(

titchy · 26/09/2018 12:01

and I don't see how it would be different in Guides.

Witty I wonder if you understand that GG policies are materially different from SA policies? Your sole argument seems to be 'well it's ok in scouts'. And it is. But we're debating guides, who have a different policy. One that centres the trans individual to the exclusion of others, unlike the scout policy which centres all members.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/09/2018 12:02

I haven't taught her to be afraid of men, I've taught her that she is in every way their equal

Got nothing to do with that in my opinion

More friendship groups, so my children has some friends they would be happy to share with and some they wouldnt

Fearandsurprise · 26/09/2018 12:02

I’m not frightened of Trans people either.
And I have no problem with trans boys being in the Girl Guides or other single sex places.

I recognise that all people, including trans people, have their own challenges in life. But, many of those challenges are different for female-born people. Due to biology and socialisation. The Girl Guides was set up to support and empower female-born people. It is not in the Girl Guides’ remit to provide for to people who are not female-born. Girls should not be the ones to lose out.

Trans people need spaces and support to meet their own particular challenges. And perhaps some believe that mixed-sex Scouting does not offer that to them. People are welcome to set up a new Trans Scouts/Guides group that meets their needs, and can choose to welcome non trans people if they so wish. There are groups like this in many countries who have specific religious beliefs.

MrsArchchancellorRidcully · 26/09/2018 12:02

Does anyone know what the scouts policy is about this? If there is a transgender girl, does she sleep with the boys or girls?

BettyDuMonde · 26/09/2018 12:03

Shit.

That sucks for looked after girls. GG really need to have a think about how ‘inclusive’ their ‘inclusive policy’ actually is.

Seems to me that the numbers of newly excluded girls far outweighs the number of newly included boy-bodied ‘girls’.

NoSquirrels · 26/09/2018 12:04

What safeguards are we putting our trust in, AmyRhodes?

Whether or not your daughter has sex or gets pregnant is ALWAYS subject to safeguards working and if you don't put your faith in safeguards, you're going to have to put her under lock and key.

What are those safeguards in a GG context?

Elephantinacravat · 26/09/2018 12:04

yes, I would be happy for her to share a tent with a boy. She shared one with three boys and two girls on her last camp and great fun was had by all. I haven't taught her to be afraid of men, I've taught her that she is in every way their equal.

What about if you weren't happy for her to share with a boy, for whatever reason? Would you be happy if you sent her off to Guide Camp, assuming that because it is a 'female only' organisation there would be no male bodied kids in the tent with her, and then later found out that she had been sharing her tent with someone with a penis?

Why not just make Guides mixed sex if that is how you feel?

I am probably going to send my daughter to Scouts. But that means when I send her to camp or whatever I have informed consent about who will be there and who she will be sharing with. Apparently, parents who send their daughters to Guides won't get that luxury.

littlbrowndog · 26/09/2018 12:04

Sorry wannabe
That is awful for your foster daughter and for you

Elephantinacravat · 26/09/2018 12:05

And what does being 'equal' have to do with sex segregation anyway?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/09/2018 12:06

Sorry wannabe i missed you post as I'm such a slow typer!!

Such a shame for your foster daughter

NoSquirrels · 26/09/2018 12:06

Oh Yorkshire I’m so sorry, that’s shit for your foster DD.

AmyRhodes · 26/09/2018 12:07

@BertrandRussell

The question about Muslims in GG is exactly the same as it is elsewhere in society. Muslims are no different from anyone else, in that they will only have a problem with trans girls if they continue to insist they are not female.

Already, many Muslim women in society will not know if they are shaking hands with a trans woman or are alone in a room with a trans woman.

stillathing · 26/09/2018 12:07

I think single sex organisations and services (if there are any left?) should take heed from this and make sure they do write inclusive policies. They should be explicit that the organisation or service is for women/girls, transmen/trans boys, and other gender identities born female (because there are an ever increasing number of gender identities). This would then be genuinely inclusive of both women who believe gender to be a harmful construct and natal females for whom a gender identity is important. Anybody attacking such an organisation for not including people born male would have very little argument to make without sounding suspicious.

OvaHere · 26/09/2018 12:07

wannabe that is a very good point.

There are very specific guidelines about caring for looked after children. If fact new legislation was released just last week (I posted it on the thread about tension in school policies). Many of these policies clash quite badly with each other.

VickyEadie · 26/09/2018 12:08

I haven't taught her to be afraid of men, I've taught her that she is in every way their equal

Yeah...My best friend was sexually assaulted, aged 15, on the way home from school. By three boys she'd gone all the way through school with. It only took one of them to pin her down, because as she was only 5'1 - and this boy was 6ft and several stones heavier, his body having had the advantage of a lot of testosterone to help it grow bigger - she didn't stand a chance.

She felt and still believes that in most respects, she is the "equal" of any man. But physically? She knows she doesn't stand a chance if another teenage boy decides to assault her, let alone a grown man.

A teenage boy declaring himself trans isn't automatically sprinkled with magic dust that makes him weak and harmless. He's a teenage boy, his body alive with hormones, like any other.

NoSquirrels · 26/09/2018 12:09

Muslims are no different from anyone else, in that they will only have a problem with trans girls if they continue to insist they are not female.

But they’re not female.

They’re transgender.

Not female.

VickyEadie · 26/09/2018 12:10

Please could those people arguing that it's 'no risk' and that they're perfectly happy if boys identifying as girls share sleeping accommodation, etc with girls answer me this:

why don't we just mix the sexes, then? Put girls and boys in the same sleeping accommodation, showers, etc? Why not?

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