Girl guiding email to parents.

[Wildboar]

Has anyone seen the mass email sent out this evening? They haven’t acknowledged any concerns put to them. All they have stated that there is no risk and they won’t inform parents of transgender members due to data protection laws.

you haven't answered the question about girls who are uncomfortable getting changed around people with male bodies?

None of the ever answer that one.

We're definitely outnumbered here, but hopefully not in society as a whole.

I don't believe for one moment that most people are ok with this. Sex segregation matters a great deal to many people. No one here hates or is scared of trans kids. You are massively oversimplifying the issue. People simply recognise that a) teenagers are full of hormones and will have sex on occasion on overnight trips, b) some males are unfortunately predatory whether they're trans or not and c)most teenage girls very much value girl only spaces, and need and want privacy at certain times such as when they're showering, changing and sleeping.

It really isn't hard to read the posts on here and to understand what the issues are. How anyone can read the many considered posts and think we just hate trans people, I don't know.

I'm sure there will be appropriate safeguarding in place so no one will be forced to shower naked with anyone or share a tent on their own with anyone they feel uncomfortable with.

I'm not. Nor were the guide leaders expelled from Guiding for saying so. Nor were the 750 parents and leaders who signed the open letter to guides that appeared in the Sunday Times.

The types of trans lobby organisations advising the guides have written guidance suggesting girls who are uncomfortable with boys in their changing rooms should be 're-educated.'

Check twitter to see what happened when a voter contacted MP Stella Creasy to ask for help for her daughter who was forced to change at school with a boy who said he felt like a girl.

As a guider my understanding is that I can't tell the other kids that someone in the unit is transgender.

I get that works in a unit meeting..no need for anyone to know.

Carry that through to residential..I still haven't told the kids ..how do I make everyone comfortable without disclosing it ahead of time . Here is one scenario..

The kids are getting ready for bed etc...there is going to be shock. let's not pretend.there won't be. We are talking kids here..omg he's a boy.. screaming running etc etc.

As a guider I then need to deal with all the kids finding out in an uncontrolled way and how the trans child is now feeling.

Now the trans child may well be discreet and it may not happen but it's something myself and my team need to consider

But girl guiding policy doesn't allow me to consider it in a proper way..I'm just supposed to say it will be fine.

And what about the little Muslim girl in my unit..I know she wouldn't be allowed to go if mum.was in full.possessions of the fact. But they are oblivious because of the policy ..what happens to her if the above scenario plays out.. what will her parents say. I now have to deal with that too.

The policy inclusion is not wrong..the silence is.

I'm not frightened of trans people.

I want to know what people think of the impact on Muslim girls of this policy. Nobody will answer me.

Red was that the boy who masturbated in the girls showers or a different case?

"I'm sure there will be appropriate safeguarding in place so no one will be forced to shower naked with anyone or share a tent on their own with anyone they feel uncomfortable with."

The whole point I was making with the scenarios, is that the inclusion policy explicitly rules out applying the safeguarding risk-assessments.

In answer to the question about Scouts: on paper, their policies are very similar to those of the Guides. However, Scouting has a long history of pragmatic tent-management to deal with mixed-sex groups. I have more confidence in a Scout Group managing this more sensibly on the ground. Guiding is more risky precisely because it has never had to consider mixed-sex groups before, and is very complacent about the extent to which teens can be sexually active. They're not predators; they're teens.

I want to know what people think of the impact on Muslim girls of this policy. Nobody will answer me.

Witty has:
"I'm SURE safeguarding is in place", "Stop hating transgender kids and calling them criminals."
Witty - Counter argument (paraphrased)

I want to know what people think of the impact on Muslim girls of this policy. Nobody will answer me.

Witty has:
"I'm SURE safeguarding is in place", "Stop hating transgender kids and calling them criminals."
Witty - Counter argument (paraphrased)

Re the Scout guidelines. There is a key paragraph in there, which I note:

What about nights away, camps and trips?
Discuss options well in advance with the young person and others involved, whilst protecting the young person’s right to privacy. The principle is to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the arrangements. Be sensitive to the needs of the young person; avoid making them feel singled out or not respected.

Interesting line in there. The line that seems rather absent from Guide position.

The scout guidance also seems to put the emphasis on the trans child using facilities at other times rather than the rest of the kids adjusting their daily routine too.

I note Mermaids have also advised on the Scout guidance - but it seems to be less draconian and involves the wellbeing of other children in there, from what I can see. Why is there a difference?

Guides seem to be saying that no conversations can be had about the subject and there is no room for sensitivity all round, whereas the Scout guidances seems more flexible and down to leaders to make a judgment about on a case by case situation.

Maybe I'm misinterpretating that, but it certainly seems to be the case.

More generally from what I understand, scouts can sleep in mixed accomodation BUT this is after leaders have risk assessed it, parents are informed and are ok with it and the children are fine with it too. So principle involves safeguarding and informed consent.

One of the reasons for allowing it, is to actually protect girls for safeguarding reasons. Eg, a girl in a tent on her own is potentially much more at risk. Generally speaking single sex for tents is preferred by leaders (and the kids) but there are exceptions in practice to ensure that girls are both included / kept safe as much as possible.

I also understand that one of the main reasons that parents send girls to guides rather than scouts tends to be because its single sex and they don't want judgement calls on this in the first place. If Guides have missed that, they really don't understand why their members join them rather than Scouts and why they remained single sex for so long. Which boggles my mind.

I have more confidence in a Scout Group managing this more sensibly on the ground. Guiding is more risky precisely because it has never had to consider mixed-sex groups before, and is very complacent about the extent to which teens can be sexually active. They're not predators; they're teens.

This.

Scouts will also already be providing for a mixed sex environment. Parents have sent their children understanding this.

Neither is true for GG.

Three of us not frightened of trans people - you, me and @WittyName4 - is actually pretty good going for MN

Oh don't be silly

Goodness...talk about exaggeration

Yes Ova that's the one I was thinking of.

I'm not frightened of trans people. I'm more than happy for trans people to be included in guides as long as the single sex status remains and these are trans people with a female anatomy. I do not want to exclude trans people but I do want to exclude penises.

Its not about being afraid of trans kids. Its about the kids being ok with other kids rather than forced into a situation where they are uncomfortable with another kid and parents and leaders have no ability or power to intervene.

Eg: A leader should not let a kid share a tent with another kid where there has been a bullying incident before. Its a safeguarding issue.

For the same reason if you've got kids who have particular dignity issues, then they might want to have that respected in some way.

The trans stuff being so hard line and rigid, removes the ability for sensible and sensitive conversations to be had along these lines - for the well being of all children.

The trans kids gets to do what they like, with the blanket that it can't be challenged 'cos transphobia'.

Thats the bit that is unhealthy and troubling in the Guide's policy.

And I do have to question why there seems to be a lot more sense in the Scout position, because the Guiding line seems very much be that they had no choice legally, when thats absoluete rot.

The whole point I was making with the scenarios, is that the inclusion policy explicitly rules out applying the safeguarding risk-assessments

Exactly.

Hiding a lie which has material consequences for women is the problem here.

This man says he's a woman. No idea of his motivations, no surgery or medical diagnosis, fully biologically male, that's what he says.

So he must be allowed to be a guide leader. No questions must be asked.

No one can be told he is biologically male. Why? His privacy is important.

Now he must be able to ignore normal safeguarding restrictions placed on males and anyone questioning this is a transphobic bigot who must be silenced or expelled.

Oh and we think crimes identifying him as male should be removed from DBS checks.

Where does it end?

@Elephantinacravat there is never any time when we would force someone to get changed where they were uncomfortable in Scouts where we have mixed genders and I don't see how it would be different in Guides. On camp if we went swimming we would tell the kids to get their kit, some changed in the tents before they left, others used a towel on the beach. If we had access to gendered changing facilities I imagine some would change in front of others and some would use cubicles depending on what they were comfortable with just like we did when I was a child. If anyone is uncomfortable in any way then provision would always be made to make sure they can join in. That's what being inclusive is about. It's not about trans rights over girls rights it's about getting children out there doing stuff and helping them develop into decent young adults.

@CaptainKirkssparetupee you're right but I am assuming that the Girl Guides have safe guarding in place already, given that they have been doing this for over a hundred years I think that's a pretty safe assumption. Just because they now accept girls who are slightly different to other girls I don't see why these should need to change. And before any comments that having a penis is not a slight difference, in terms of everything the Guides do I'm sure having a penis is not a help nor a hindrance so in this context it is slight.

I do ask at this point,

Were the guides given different advice than the Scouts?
And if so, by whom?

Was it by lawyers? If it was Mermaids or another trans charity thats an issue. And would set off alarm bells for me.

If the Scouts knew to ask certain questions that the Guides didn't, when making their advice, thats also an issue. That suggests the guides inexperience with safeguarding of this nature is a real problem.

Completely agree with red

The scouts have managed it....possibly because they have been mixed for a while now

The guides seem to be ballsing it up

you're right but I am assuming that the Girl Guides have safe guarding in place already

Why won't they explain it or let discussion hapen around it then?

WHAT IS IT?

Can you explain it?

My question to those people accusing everyone of 'transphobia' and claiming there's 'no risk' from putting a male-bodied guide in with the female-bodied guides is always this: why not let any boy share sleeping, changing, showering facilities with the girls at any time, then?

How does that male-bodied teenager suddenly transform into 'no risk' when he declares himself a girl?

given that they have been doing this for over a hundred years

No, they've not been doing this for over a hundred years, things have now changed, their policy has changed. But what is it now?

WittyName4
Out of interest, would you be happy for your daughter to share a tent with a boy? Not a transgirl just a boy? Would you also be happy to not be told if that was going to happen?
Maybe this is where the difference lies? I would not allow my daughter to share with a boy. End of.
Does that mean I hate all boys/think they are all criminals?

Ffs have literally just signed DD up for rainbows. She would absolutely love it but now I just don’t know what to do. I’m so angry about this

I am assuming that the Girl Guides have safe guarding in place already, given that they have been doing this for over a hundred years I think that's a pretty safe assumption. Just because they now accept girls who are slightly different to other girls I don't see why these should need to change.

"Assuming" - they've thrown out people for asking about risk assessments and said the Equality Act doesn't allow them to do so (not true, in fact).

This bit bears repeating, however: Just because they now accept girls who are slightly different to other girls Oh, mate... "slightly different".

I asked above - why do we not let any boy share sleeping, etc facilities with girls?