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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Call for gender critical people in Cambridge, UK

281 replies

maniacmagpie · 24/09/2018 12:21

DISCLAIMER: am not a mum and am relatively young. Have lurked intermittently here and in other feminism spaces, largely interacting with other young people (student age). Due to my age, my main exposure to these issues is from the point of view of someone moving in young liberal spaces, and my call is phrased accordingly, rather than among adult women who have a more tangible experience of systematic sexism in society, medicine and life. PLEASE let me know if this not the appropriate place for this request, and I will step back.

This is a message that I have started to spread: I have not generally been a social person and so am finding it relatively difficult to get started on contacting people. If I can get in contact with other people who share my concerns in person that would be great: if not, I will do what I can.

"Hello.

I am a student at Cambridge University. I have been left-leaning my whole adult life. I have been supportive of trans rights for years. I have always believed, and continue to firmly believe, that discrimination on the basis of being trans is unacceptable; trans people should have access to the care that they need, and do not deserve to be treated as lesser people on the basis of who they are.

Despite this, I have become increasingly alarmed by the discourse surrounding trans activism. For many years I crushed my own thoughts about misogyny, my doubts about my own understanding of sexism, with the thoughts that I must not ‘get’ it as a ‘cis’ female. I believed - or rather, forced myself to believe, when I couldn’t truly believe - that trans people, and specifically trans women, completely understand what it means to be the gender they identify with.

I no longer believe this. Please, before you dismiss me as a bigot, hear me out.

I no longer believe womanhood is a mystical force that can be detached at will from the reality of the female body, I do not believe that femininity is the target of misogyny, because non-conforming women suffer still from misogyny. I do not believe that even trans men are able to escape all misogyny and their own socialisation by transitioning - they are still able to be, and indeed have been, targeted by sexual violence in a way that only male-bodied people can visit on female-bodied people - reproductive violence, that can result in pregnancy, and the associated policing of bodily autonomy that comes with that. I believe that trans women are the targets of misogyny when it is assumed they are female bodied, and homophobia and fear when they are assumed to be male. I do not believe that it is reasonable, or appropriate, to demand that natal women stop talking about reproductive violence due to this misdirected misogyny. I do not believe that this statement is transphobic.

I believe that transphobia - job discrimination, verbal abuse and violence - is unacceptable. However, I strongly disagree that certain actions that are labelled as transphobic among progressives, are transphobic at all. I believe, not only that homosexual men and women have every right to reject opposite-sexed people as sexual and romantic partners, but also that the demands circulated among many progressive forums are damaging to young people’s understanding of their sexuality. Specifically, the toxic combination of female socialisation, lack of resources for isolated girls, and pornsick fetishisation of lesbianism for the consumption of men makes lesbian youth vulnerable to manipulation and gaslighting from mainstream LGBT+ groups, illustrated by the horrific discourse about the ‘cotton ceiling’. Not wanting to sleep with someone is not violence. Inclusivity is not something that is expressed through access to your body. I do not believe that in normal conversation it is at all reasonable to demand that any person, trans or otherwise, talk about their genitals - but sexual relationships are another matter. Sexual relationships should only be engaged with by two willing and enthusiastic participants. Human sexuality is, and should be, exclusive and not a target for guilt-tripping.

I believe that specific difficulties are presented to trans people that they should have the resources to deal with and spaces to talk about. However, I also believe that specific difficulties are presented to female people on the basis of their bodies - and that discussion of these issues is not transphobia. Naming reproductive violence for what it is, campaigning for better understanding of female medical issues in the face of the huge male bias of modern medicine, and recognition of the economic and social penalties endured by female people specifically on the basis of being physically female and not due to an inner identity, is not transphobia.

Gender hurts. Gender is a system designed to trap and control female people from birth through childhood, adolescence, adulthood and old age, because of their reproductive capabilities. This system did not fall from the heavens; it was created by males, to benefit males. Women have always, and continue to, suffer under this system - our economic power restricted, our lives at the mercy of men, our bodies policed, our voices ignored - because we are female, because we are chattel, because of those who believe we are lesser. Gender is the reinforcement of sex stereotypes, that women have fought against and will continue to fight against, as long as it exists.

Many males suffer under this system - gender non-conforming males are at inordinate risk of violence, generally from other males - due to stepping out of line. Boys who show emotion are punished for it. Gender hurts - gender is not a fun hat to take on and off, gender kills boys and men for behaving the wrong way, and girls and women for both resisting and capitulating. Gender is not a fun toy to play with and to swap around. Gender is a system designed to break us down.

‘Pussy grabs back’ - women cry - because the President of the United States said ‘grab them by the pussy’. Not ‘grab them by the feminine essence’ or ‘grab them by the girl brain’ or ‘grab them by the emotional intelligence’. Grab them by the pussy. Grab this creature who exists for his consumption and pleasure, by the only thing that gives them value in his eyes. Focusing on this does not make women genital obsessed. Pointing out that this is the root of our oppression is not transmisogyny. Recognising that we are treated this way because of our bodies is not a statement that it is the most important aspect of our selves, but a declaration that we are more than our bodies - and that we must be able to name the problem in order to combat the problem. Saying ‘this pussy grabs back’ is not transphobia. Recognising the extreme sexism of powerful men is not transphobia.

I retain a deep sympathy for those who suffer with dysphoria and deal with it in the best way they can. My stance on trans identities is roughly that of a medicalist. I believe that trans people are fully deserving of respect, the same rights as every other person, and freedom from discrimination. I believe that what is being asked, by certain noisy factions of trans rights extremists, is not a call for respect but rather a call for excessive privileges at the expense largely of natal females, and a targeted bullying of lesbian females and homosexual males. I do not believe that it is transphobic to point this out.

I do not believe in brain sex, but even if I did I think it is irrelevant - if you carved open a woman to find a clearly, obviously male brain with MAN branded in big blue letters, she would still have suffered sexism based on her body. To those who believe this to be true, that they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and the only way to alleviate this is transition, I respect your autonomy and your right to live as you feel best, but must say this: sexism visited on a man in a woman’s body is no worse than sexism visited on a woman in a woman’s body. Sexism hurts ‘cis’ women as much as it hurts female-bodied people who identify otherwise. I do not believe this is a transphobic thing to say.

I want to raise awareness and spark discussion in Cambridge, both in and outside the University. I want to discuss these issues, in light of the gender self-ID consultation, the silencing of A Women’s Place UK, the violence perpetrated upon women who speak out, and the vitriol being circulated against gender critics. I invite natal women, natal men, trans women, trans men, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, questioning, otherwise - anyone who wants to discuss, debate or just acknowledge this topic - to contact me. My wish is to provide a space to debate and discuss these topics outside the false dichotomy of the ‘conservative right’ and the ‘progressive left’. I want to reach out to the women suffering from misogyny, men suffering from enforcement of toxic masculinity, and trans, lesbian and gay people who are being failed by conservative families on the right and by ‘queer identity’ theorists on the left who describe their reality as transphobic, who feel silenced and unable to speak out without being branded as either morally disgusting or as bigots.

Please spread this. PM me. I want to talk. I’m reaching out. I will use the tag ‘gender hurts uk’ (on tumblr, where my blog is 'yourledgerisdripping'), or privately message those of you who reach out to me.

Gender hurts."

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maniacmagpie · 22/03/2019 16:53

I will be back outside tomorrow (Saturday 23rd March)

People are always welcome to join me afterwards, I generally follow up by finding somewhere to caffeinate in town.

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pearlkent · 22/03/2019 17:53

Just bumping this for you maniac for anyone in the Cambridge area. I'm a couple of hours away so unfortunately can't come and support you tomorrow, but just want to say how full of admiration I am for what you are doing. It must be so difficult as a young GC student in these insane Orwellian times. I wish you had more publicity.

Needmoresleep · 22/03/2019 20:18

I have decided to go along. Train booked.

Caffeinate or alcoholate?

It would be lovely to meet some other MNetters, as well as the very wonderful Maniacmagpie.

MIdgebabe · 22/03/2019 20:33

What time is your session? Can’t do this weekend but hope to have a day out soon and I am sure Cambridge is nice

maniacmagpie · 22/03/2019 22:06

2pm to 4pm. I have a flexible schedule during the week and would happily arrange to meet for coffee/other beverages via DM if people are in on other days.

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Needmoresleep · 22/03/2019 22:39

I think I might raid Waitrose on my way to tempt people along. Other beverages sound good.

pearlkent · 23/03/2019 20:19

How did you get on today maniac?

maniacmagpie · 23/03/2019 23:40

Hello again mumsnet.

I must confess recently I've not been very engaged with posting longer updates, I think purely just due to exhaustion with this entire topic. I've been fairly quiet on Twitter (I don't really use it at the moment except to tell people when I'll be out and about).

It's everywhere. Anyone who tells you you can escape it just by putting down the phone/computer is at best well-meaning but doesn't know, and at worst just wants you to give it up and let it happen, they'll often tell you there's nothing you can do, that's just 'the world'.

Stuff that noise, quietly letting the world get on with things just means the noisy assert their will. This woman isn't going quietly into the night.

I wonder how far I'll go to fight this, sometimes. What is my price? Where will I stop? How far will I go?

I suppose I won't know until I get there.

The Saturday I was ill a Lib Dem came to canvass me and I ended up giving him an earful about the way his party is demonising every woman with concerns about single-sex spaces. I wish I'd remembered Lynne Featherstone's name. He sold me some asinine bull about how there will always be teething problems as we move towards a more liberal society...something something co-existing with people different to ourselves...something something gay rights. I told him NO you do not get to frame this as Bad Misguided Conservatives vs Good Woke Progressives. This is a clash of rights and women constitute a materially meaningful - and vulnerable - group. A group who you can rely upon to be kind and helpful. A group whose kindness you are taking advantage of.

Then I went back to bed to continue coughing up my lungs. So much for my quiet day off.

Last week was quite interesting: I got a counter protester for the first time in a little while. A non-binary identifying female who sat next to me with a handwritten 'Trans women are our sisters' sign. I think she (disclaimer to cover my ass, because I've totally lost track of what I can and cannot say - no pronouns declared so I will use the sexed ones) saw me and immediately felt she had to respond. I engaged with her (gently) and we ended up seeing eye to eye on quite a lot of things, to be honest. I was surprised that she referenced biological sex (using the terms XX and XY) when talking about experiences. I wondered why she'd had the problem then with what I was saying. I probed a bit. She felt I had been saying something along the lines of wanting to keep people 'in their lanes'; this seems to be very common. She backed off in the end, apologising for misreading me. I felt bad for her. She was quiet and keen to appease me when she felt she'd been mistaken. In a certain sense I felt she was a people pleaser who wasn't finding what she could relate to in all the things people were saying womanhood had to be. It saddens me that when we divorce 'woman' from 'female' suddenly there is a mass of confusion and if you can't find something in you that says 'woman' you must not be one.

This week I engaged with another non-binary identifying female (again pronouns undeclared) who I got somewhat more frustrated with; highlights include me asking what a woman was that she felt she had to escape it and essentially got 'I don't know - I just know I am not one'. I wish I knew what the hell that meant. I tried to get through with talking about how there was no way for me to make a claim against sexist practices of my ancestors, that no matter what I could say to them they'd not see me as a man, and moreover that it's no more unjust to me than to any other female of the line, that we could not inherit or claim land...Another comment that irked me was the explanation: 'I realised that my genitalia had nothing to do with what was going on in my head'. I argued that wasn't this a declaration that the rest of us are associating our genitalia with our 'selves'? I didn't get much of an answer to that either.

I try to show women like this that on a personal level we're the same in so many ways. And the things that make me 'woman' aren't something mysterious in my head. Nor is it so for so many other women. I don't know if I'll get through to any of them. I wish they could see both how limiting it is to themselves and how insulting it is to the rest of us, but I can only wonder if that day may come in the future. And until then I hold both a sadness that so many women have been chased by the trauma of womanhood into another box, and determination to fight them all the same, because the damage they do is real and present.

It's so telling that the majority of the footsoldiers are female. It's funny how no matter what they call themselves, women end up doing the wifework of getting stuff done.

Another interesting angle I get is from people who have seen the issue play out overseas. One such man stopped by today, he commented on how the atmosphere varies from state to state in the US depending on their laws. It's mainly been men who have seen the 'free speech' angle - sometimes from Canada, the US, New Zealand. Not caught an Aussie yet. The misgendering laws in Canada are discussed again and again. People in different countries are watching each other closely to see how it plays out. Sharing how it develops across the world is important. And how it plays out in the UK will have effects beyond just us.

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Big shout out to Needsmoresleep (and for our tasty afternoon appetiser) and R who travelled from London to sit and talk with me today - I had a great time.

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maniacmagpie · 24/03/2019 11:23

Bleargh. In my late night haze I missed possibly the most important part of the story...

A lady who runs a women's space told of a bearded, suited man - shirt open to show a hairy chest - coming to ask for services from the refuge. Clearly there to push the boundaries and see what she would do. She's holding her ground, waiting and wondering - how many vultures are circling? when the lobby will target them?

While we're busy teasing out the nuances to appease the sensitivities of mostly harmless people, we lose sight of what it's all about. We have these laws and spaces to protect us when we are vulnerable.

A lesson to me, to keep an eye on what is most important. The emotional impact of the assault on women's spaces had become so normal that I could forget to include it - it's so normal.

I blunt my anger so that I can sit down to talk with people who I profoundly disagree with, in order to find common ground, so as not to be the irrational and hateful boogeyTERF. And so this becomes normal. Not acceptable, but expected.

The window of my expectations is warped beyond all reason by all this discussion. I need to bring back my anger. I'm ashamed to have let this slip.

This isn't normal and we cannot let it be.

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LangCleg · 24/03/2019 11:39

She was quiet and keen to appease me when she felt she'd been mistaken.

This just makes me want to cry. She wouldn't feel like this if she had free and ready access to multi-generational, women-only spaces.

I don't post often on your thread, maniacmagpie, but I always read it and I want to say a heartfelt thank you for everything you are doing.

SisterWendyBuckett · 24/03/2019 12:15

And another thank you, as ever, from me Magpie.

You give me hope where currently (on a personal level) it's very easy for me to feel there is none.

It's hard to deal with the anger - it's there and it's real and it matters but at the same time it feels toxic and horrible.

What I don't want to do is allow my anger to eat me up. I'm trying to use my anger as fuel to energise me, to give me enough drive to move forward. Otherwise this is overwhelming and paralysing.

I try not to direct my anger at any one individual. When that's hard, I keep on trying to peel back the layers and look at the biggest picture.

I always want to say to you that you're not alone. And that, although you are a shining beacon of light who is out there taking action, this does not all rest on your shoulders. We stand with you ThanksThanksThanks

Lamaha · 24/03/2019 13:26

Hi Magpie, not living anywhere near Cambridge I didn't open this thread till yesterday and am awed and delighted by your eloquence. I HAD seen that photo of you with the sign on various tweets and on Facebook though, so knowing it was you gave me the warm fuzzies!
Here's some flowers and cake. I'm a lot older than you but I have adult kids who have been students and it's so good to know that not all young people have been absorbed into the woke agenda. Flowers Cake
Both my parents were outspoken activists in a far off British colony (my mother a very early feminist who broke several taboos) but I am of a more introverted nature and my protests are not as brave.
I do so admire you.

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 13:48

I strongly recommend a day out in Cambridge. I had not been for a while , the weather was good, and I had a lovely walk round a few art galleries before joining Maniacmagpie on her wall.

It was fascinating:

  1. Lots of people watching. Various groups of children, students and tourists walked past, some giving confused half glances, coupled with a few thumbs up and a few less friend looks from passers by.
  1. The non binary female was charming and curious. It was all so vague. She started with intersex as an argument against biology. But intersex is a chromosome disorder, nothing to do with gender. This then was quickly dropped in favour of some vague stuff Magpie has described. This was pretty good natured not least because she and Magpie seemed unable to pin point exactly where they disagreed. Good evidence perhaps for more open discussion about gender roles and sex stereotypes.
  1. I liked the Texan who seemed to have been reading newspapers avidly since arriving in the UK, so with lots of questions about free speech and Caroline. He seemed to know a lot about the debate in North America, including Canada with Jordan Peterson appearing to be the main source. It would be so useful if a respected liberal US commentator would stick their heads above the parapet.
  1. The woman's centre lady was wonderful. They have had to change their working approach so inexperienced staff are not put on the spot if confronted by more bearded ladies. They are also willing to fight to maintain their single sex provision. They are also receiving an surprising number of applications from men for front line positions. She seemed to think this was partly opportunistic. They had already had to fight one discrimination case, which they won.

There are a number of brave, intelligent, and honest people I have either met or come across over the past year. The group is also surprisingly diverse. Magpie is one of them. The word is getting out.

Tap335 · 24/03/2019 17:02

Just adding my thanks and admiration. I don't know how you do it but I am glad that you do.

lottiebel123 · 24/03/2019 17:47

do you ever do weeks days @maniacmagpie ? I' sometimes in that general direction on week days but not usually at weekends.

AcidityRegulated · 24/03/2019 17:55

This is such a wonderful thread. Thank you, magpie, for your important work. I wish I could join you!

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 24/03/2019 19:35

Just want to add my appreciation of what you do. I'm older than you but move in incredibly woke circles, and initially thought non-binary was the answer to all my problems of not feeling like I fit feminine gender roles. Whilst I've always called myself a feminist, I didn't have strong female role models in my life to look up to or who I identified with, and so I felt that I must be 'different' and even swallowed the 'gender is a spectrum' stuff at first, as I felt it explained why I didn't fit in. I suspect there are a lot of non-binary identifying females who are similar, and simply need to hear other women's voices that they can identify with, to understand that there's nothing so unusual about not fitting feminine stereotypes at all, we are conditioned to conform and some are just more resistant than others. To me it just shows how much liberal, mainstream feminism is saturated in misogyny, that I was for many years calling myself a feminist yet wasn't hearing strong female voices that I could identify with - it was more about 'liberating' yourself by doing burlesque etc. You must have the patience of a saint, sending lots of love your way xxxxx

maniacmagpie · 29/03/2019 17:48

@lottiebel123 I'm afraid I don't protest on weekdays. In general though I'm game for a hot beverage in town if people DM me.

Thank you everyone for the support. I really do appreciate it. I can only say I am truly thankful to be in a position where I am reasonably confident nobody can remove me as a student. I particularly feel for those of you who can't voice concerns in your jobs. It is downright crazy.

Honestly I think I can only hold on to patience in the hope that it will be a blade of dry grass, waiting the weeks or months or years as the others pile up, waiting for the spark. It's such a common sentiment that many of us had a pile of doubts that sat squashed in the closet for so long. I'm convinced it's why so many peak so fast.

I'll be back outside tomorrow (Saturday 30th March) on King's Parade from 2pm to 4pm.

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maniacmagpie · 05/04/2019 16:08

Unfortunately I will not be out protesting tomorrow (Saturday 6th April)

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MIdgebabe · 05/04/2019 16:16

HOPE all is ok with you

maniacmagpie · 12/04/2019 12:40

Unfortunately I also can't do tomorrow (Saturday 13th April)
Thanks for the well wishing MIdgebabe

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maniacmagpie · 19/04/2019 13:53

I will be back outside protesting tomorrow (Saturday 20th April) - enjoy your Easter weekends everyone.

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Ereshkigal · 19/04/2019 15:45

You too Magpie! Flowers

maniacmagpie · 26/04/2019 11:24

Sorry, I can't do tomorrow (27th April). Have a good weekend.

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Manderleyagain · 26/04/2019 12:16

Hello Magpie. Hop all is going well.