What's with all the transgender hate?

[Tiggy82]

I'm new to this and have been looking at the feminism chat and there seems to be so much hate and fear about transgender people! What's that about? And apparently you can't be a feminist and be accepting of transgender people, that just seems ludicrous to me, surely feminism is about equality, I am not pretending to be particularly knowledgeable on the trans subject, but i do think having equality for transgender people is nothing but a positive thing. Has anyone actually been personally negatively affected by a transgender person? Or is it all a theoretical fear?

7 pages when OP is clearly trolling...

Abso-fucking-lutely

I'm sorry I gave into the troll

Don't worry Kat, it was a fucking awesome rant!

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/23/revealed-less-than-a-third-of-young-men-prosecuted-for-are-convicted?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

See? As Midgebabe’s great post above outlined, no wonder we’re afraid, especially younger women and girls. And yes we can tell the difference, and no we don’t like it, and yes you are taking the piss.

I suppose my question is why can't you be a feminist and be ok with trans people?

You can, and near all feminists on this board ARE 'OK with trans people'. Its transactivist ideology thats the issue, and the behaviour of transactivists, and of course..male violence.

I'm not saying a man can just say they are a woman and that be it, and that isn't how it works, at least not in the uk, and it isn't black and white, but most of the feminism posts on here are about trans issues, and really is that the biggest issue women face?

Its how it will work in the UK if transactivists get their way. The current proposal is for people to basically be able to sign a form and that be it, they are the opposite sex. Its insane. Given the consultation is currently ongoing, yes this is a HUGE issue for feminists right now. Potentially, this is the largest threat to womens rights there has ever been.

However, as other people have posted, this link explains it much better than I could

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=1

Yes, its a bit much to digest that this is actually currently happening, but it is. Noone on here hates trans people. Regardless of how much transactivists on twitter scream that we do.

another GF character-smearing FWR women and hoping for screenshots

Thank you OP for starting this thread. I have just read through so many awe inspiring posts from articulate, passionate and strong women. (suspect that's not what you had in mind when you started this)

Thank you everyone who's posted for your insight, commitment and determination. by the thousand for all of you.

An obvious reason there are so many thread on the subject here is that we can get together elsewhere, online or in the flesh, to discuss issues such as domestic violence without risk to our jobs.
We can hold meetings in public buildings about maternity pay without being subjected to bomb threats and intimidation.
We can even march through a city centre protesting about Universal Credit without fear of actual violence.

Yy to this, AspieandProud.

There is no other aspect of feminism where our thoughts, language, actions, rights to organise, raise awareness and debate are being policed and suppressed the way they are around this issue.

Usually by the very people we would normally expect to be our allies, those who claim to care about social justice and the rights of the vulnerable.

There is no other issue in feminism where everything is quite so topsy turvy and the people we need to defend ourselves from are the very people who claim to be on our side.

Just saying... It's in the public domain so hope it's ok.

Sorry haven't RTFT. No transgender hate from me - just not happy with an ideology that erodes the meaning / use of the word woman. Many reasons why this is a problem from a theoretical / ideological point of view.
But practical implications :

• Risk to health due to messages calling for screening for "people with cervixes"
• Unwinding / reducing opportunities for women - eg Pippa Bunce being one of the business women of the year, transwomen appearing in all women short lists
• Incorrect statistics on equal pay
• Incorrect violent crime statistics. Should be based on sex not gender because it is physical sex that creates the differences in incidence of violent not gender.

Sport - has implication of women no longer winning anything. Safeguarding - women's prisons, etc. For obvious reasons. Women's right to gather in a single sex space eg women's only swimming. Just a few examples.

my question is why can't you be a feminist and be ok with trans people?
You can.

The problem arises when you wholeheartedly accept the notion that transwomen are women and the definition of transwoman is any man who says he is a woman at any point in time. So even if he wears a dress once a week, he is still a woman.

Then when you have accepted that notion, you allow any man that has claimed that status, to be treated the same as a woman. So he can:
Become a woman security officer and carry out searches on women.
Become a carer providing intimate care to women.
Use women's only facilities including refuges, swimming sessions, changing rooms, showers, hospital wards, prisons etc.
Compete against women in sport.

That's how women's rights get eroded. Nothing at all against transwomen who just want to get on with their lives. They have every right to live their lives expressing themselves in whatever way they want to. Many should be accepted as men who just happen to like wearing dresses sometimes. Others may want to take hormone treatment and surgery to present like a woman. They should suffer no mistreatment and no discrimination. It should be perfectly ok to be a transwoman.

The word 'accept' is always deployed as it has a double meaning. Why can't you accept trans? Trying to dress it up as a 'be nice' question when they actually mean 'why can't you accept that they are really the opposite sex?'

Is it not allowed to call weetabix anymore?

re women's rights on the mental health ward, someone posted a report at www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3373068-Sexual-safety-on-mental-health-wards Unsurprisingly, women are the majority of victims of sexual attacks on MH wards.

I fully appreciate the threat posed by self ID and the justifiable opposition to it. However, there is at times a distinctly derisory tone on here towards trans people IMHO. I think some posters are likely so invested in the fight that they don't realise.

Despite the (arguably shocking) ways in which some trans people are prepared to modify their bodies to attain their goals, we don't really know whether the psychological processes that make somebody want to identify as the other sex are any more 'unnatural' or less innate than those that cause an idividual to be attracted to their own sex.

Eagleitarian

I say let adult people dress themselves and modify their bodies however they seem fit, and good luck to them! A lot of us are mature women, and very little shocks us. We are not habitual pearl-clutchers!

But when groups of men with bad intent are attempting to deprive us of our child-safe spaces and women-only spaces, then we fight back, seriously - for the sake of children and women.

Extreme Men's Rights Activists are so blatant.

I'm personally amongst other things very concerned that the TRA movement is silencing science... statistics are being altered based on individuals desire to erase their correct biology from public records

And also I am pissed off on a personal level at being considered a bigot for teaching my DC basic science - e.g. Willy = boy

It's gone beyond acceptance and into utterly taking over the world and sending it to hell in a handbasket

Primary school children are being told they're born in the "wrong bodies" and trans. No they're fucking children. Children who are figuring stuff out. Let them!

However, there is at times a distinctly derisory tone on here towards trans people IMHO. I think some posters are likely so invested in the fight that they don't realise.

Please could you point to some actual examples of this Eagleitarian. If we have become blind to real prejudice agains trans people it would be very helpful if you could show us where this is the case.

I for one have defended the rights of minorities and the oppressed my whole life, both personally and professionally. It has come as a surprise to me that I find myself on the so called "wrong side of history" on the trans issue. I have done a lot of soul searching and thinking about the issue and constantly question myself on whether I might be wrong. In a way I would love to be wrong about my concerns.

But then I come back to Pips Bunce, and fully intact transwomen with convictions for sexual violence in female prisons, and the Challenors, and "lady dicks", and re-writing of basic biology and I know I am not wrong about my concerns.

No matter how often we say here that we are not anti-trans, that we want trans people to be treated with compassion, for their rights to be protected, that our beef is with the trans activists who are pushing an extreme agenda that is likely to be harmful to trans people as well as to women, we are told we are anti-trans.

Please give us some direct examples where this is the case.

Thanks.

Not anti trans but anti extreme trans agenda that is trying to be pushed through with the whole 'no debate' violent narrative.

We need to debate. Women and girls - who will bear the brunt - need to be heard. Not meame bodies price who 'feel' like a woman and mothers (never heard of a father) who have, for whatever the motivation, pushed their children to life changing medical intervention before they could even legally vote/smoke/have sex/get a tattoo.

I always look at motivation. Follow the money too. It smells suspicious.

meame bodies price - What?? Male bodied people...

However, there is at times a distinctly derisory tone on here towards trans people IMHO. I think some posters are likely so invested in the fight that they don't realise.

Derisory tone

Vs

bomb threats, beating up pensioners, barricading meetings in balaclavas to stop women speaking, ambushing and threatening venues to close down women who want to meet to discuss their legal rights, doxxing women and their children for the women's daring to speak up, calling the cops on women who speak the actual truth of what actually happened from the person who did the thing, taking a lesbian pensioner to court for daring to say they would defend themselves, calling the cops to prevent a bunch of mainly retired women from entering a public house, taking a woman to court for posting a video of a lesbian pensioner daring to say they would defend themselves.

Yeah, right. Derisory tone beats all that hands down.

However, there is at times a distinctly derisory tone on here towards trans people IMHO.

Couldn't give a shit if there is. Tell the extremists to get their #handsoffmyrights and I'll stop deriding (if, indeed, I do actually deride).

I don't take instruction in tone.

we don't really know whether the psychological processes that make somebody want to identify as the other sex are any more 'unnatural' or less innate than those that cause an idividual to be attracted to their own sex

What's funny is that you don't even realize how homophobic that sounds.

Well no evidence of hate. Anywhere. Fancy that. So many excellent posts on this thread though, explaining and cementing the arguments.

Mamaryllis lays out various aspects that are at stake for different groups of women from the loss of sex segregated spaces and I would love for the somehow, still majorly uninformed OP, (given all the whataboutery they do) to respond substantively to the posts without asking any more questions. (Thomas Fudge Florentines are to die for)

DancelikeEmmaGoldman sets out the science, always gotta look to the science, then KataraJean blows it out of the water with the coecercive control post. This is where women are at, informed and poised for battle - because we have no choice.

Personal examples of harm are requested as we know women always have to justify themselves when standing up to abuse #ibelieveyou,...well Pandemonium so sorry for everything happened to you but thank you for sharing a perfect example of the harms of trans ideology making a mockery of safeguarding. That there are numerous examples of 'this never happens' always seems to escape the notice of those intent on waving away safeguarding.

Then comes TalkingintheDark's eloquent post about the massive problem of misogyny, the repeated silencing of women/gender criticals on social media and in the workplace. And how Mumsnet is one of the few places left. Though Twitter does seem to grow new vocal GC feminists to replace all the excellent ones we've lost along the way.

Seems clear we ain't going to STFU on this one. Feminists are always accused of hating men when we stand up for ourselves...same old, same old.