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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is wrong right?

642 replies

DukeOfSussex · 18/09/2018 19:31

If your teenage daughter had her first week at the University of Sussex this week this is what found in her welcome bag.

A Pot Noodle, A tablet of washing detergent, a sim card and an individual sized portion of instant coffee.

AND

A picture of a woman designed to look like she has spunk dripping down her face to sell toothbrushes. "whether you spit or swallow during your twice daily oral regime..."

She'll also find a drinks night event by the Student union being advertised all over campus. It has a picture of a dead eyed half naked woman laying in an empty bath...which advertises what? Fuck knows.

She will also find a copy of the student newspaper in her bag. On the front cover at the very top of the page is an article entitled "Transphobia and toilets". This is discussing the recent words of University of Sussex philosophy professor Kathleen Stock who dared to very (politely) question some aspects of trans theory.

Your daughter, if disabled, will also be concerned to see that some of the disabled toilets have been declared "for all genders". Which is lovely and inclusive but not ideal if you're disabled and need a wee and need to wait for an able bodied non binary male wearing lipstick to go for a shit first.

She will find that the "This Sussex Girl Can" all women only classes are open to all "women, trans gender people and non binary individuals" so just mixed classes basically .

So far so expected of university in general but what upsets me is that people wanted Kathleen Stock's job for having an opinion. She caused students to feel "unsafe" with her very words, but in a world where women are literally unsafe and sexual assault is endemic in universities, Sussex student union didn't think twice before objectifying its female students. If your employer gave you a goody bag with this card in it you could rightfully be making a formal complaint to your HR department. Why is it appropriate for university?

We can't discuss why it's always a woman advertising drinks, or toothbrushes without discussing women and the group of people who actually deal with the real repercussions of being women. It's a bloody joke.Why don't people care about actual sexism, real life objectification of women.

OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 20/09/2018 16:48

Sex and gender are separate concepts. Another comment mentioned the idea that "humans can't change sex". That isn't the point - gender identity has nothing to do with your sex markers.

Absolutely.
And the right to segregated spaces is on the basis of the protected characteristic of sex. Physical, objective reality. Not a subjective 'identity'.
There is nothing I've ever heard of where there should be any discrimination or segregation on the basis of 'gender' whatever.

These things become clearer the longer you live. The more you see structural sexism which is purely the result of biology.

DukeOfSussex · 20/09/2018 16:59

I get the impression that actually, the one who hasn't done their research is @rw280 And they don't understand the gender critical feminist's position in full at all.

I also think that person would be concerned to know that by admitting that sex is a real, separate to gender, thing they are inching towards "transphobia" too.

OP posts:
DukeOfSussex · 20/09/2018 17:03

E.g. if we consider biological sex as made up of: chromosomes, genitals, gonads, hormones, and secondary sex characteristics, then the idea that sex cannot change seems wrong. One can change their genitals surgically, can have their gonads removed, can alter their hormones, and can change their secondary sex characteristics

This is a tiger. His dead name is Dennis Avner but he changed it to Stalking Cat.

OP posts:
Datun · 20/09/2018 17:05

rw280

I do wish someone could explain to me how women are oppressed on the basis of their gender roles.

Not that those gender roles are the means of oppressing them based on their sex.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 20/09/2018 17:05

That's a stupid tiger name. Tigers are called tigger surely?

Are they a male or female tiger, and with whom/what do they mate (and does it count as bestiality?).

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/09/2018 17:05

clearly shows that you have done zero research into the science behind trans identities. Biologists agree that sex and gender are separate concepts, and that identities outside of cisgender exist and are valid

No they don’t. Grin

I know because I’m an actual scientist. no fucker believes this, I can assure you. Have I done research? About 22 years of it, actually. Grin

That brain paper (or actually the primary piece of literature that the rather crap OP ED is talking about), which I’m sure you’ve read, understood and can summarise, yes? What do you think it says? Rather than just dumping a link down, précis it for me - because it doesn’t say anything like what you think it does. But I somehow suspect you actually haven’t read the primary paper, and you’ve just been given thatvlink from the Big Book Of Linky Science resources TRAs have.

Let’s talk science. I LOVE this argument that science has moved on and is all woke now - because it’s bollocks, and I can argue it all day. So can several of our other posters, who are scientists.

Bring it on...

nopeni · 20/09/2018 17:06

Tigerphobes! What rude intrusive questions Angry I for one welcome our tiger friends into all spaces, and think cats would do well to share.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 20/09/2018 17:06

I love a good scientist rumble...

AsAProfessionalFekko · 20/09/2018 17:07

Tigers eat cats...

BettyDuMonde · 20/09/2018 17:09

Aw, leave poor Dennis out of it, you transfelinephobes!

AsAProfessionalFekko · 20/09/2018 17:16

Fine. But thats one kitty litter box I wouldn't want to empty.

NameChangedAgain18 · 20/09/2018 17:17

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/sep/20/toothbrush-subscription-firm-brushbox-apologises-over-spit-or-swallow-advert

So apparently, not even the Guardian found the Brushbox campaign empowering.

BabyTeeth · 20/09/2018 17:22

Sorry x-post.
Interesting they did not use the image.
Oh because it’s pornographic.

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/09/2018 17:26

And to your point on statistics. The stats show that the murder rate of every other minority group far exceeds that of trans victims. While every death is one too many, the narrative that there is an epidemic of anti trans violence is simply not true.

gendercritter · 20/09/2018 17:30

rw280 every single thing that you have written has been analysed and discussed on this board 100 times over.

I know you feel really really strongly that you are in the right and yours is the compassionate approach but if you stuck around and read everything here you would understand why you are wrong.

Your arguments are intellectually really weak. And what is worse, there are consequences for holding the opinions you do. You are betraying your own sex. Your tone is quite patronising and I can't understand why you think people here are in need of doing more research. Is it because you think this is merely a group of mums? You really need to examine your own assumptions if that is the case. I'm not a mum, I went to Oxford and I am left-wing and generally hugely compassionate and sensitive. I am also gender-criticial to the bone. Am I just a mean, out of touch transphobe? Of course not. I know 2 non-binary people in real life and many others here know trans people too.

Put your work aside for an hour, read some of the posts here and engage with our arguments. You will learn something.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/09/2018 17:36

Is it because you think this is merely a group of mums? You really need to examine your own assumptions if that is the case. I'm not a mum, I went to Oxford and I am left-wing and generally hugely compassionate and sensitive.

I'm sure you didn't mean that the way it sounds. Sad

disorganisedXX · 20/09/2018 17:36

@rw280

The concern about facilities for disabled people is the most valid one. I completely understand your worries - our society has been built for able-bodied people, and thus has completely exluded people with disabilities from public life. My point was that the gender neutral toilets were purpose built as an addition. As you said, why can't they be an addition - they are! They were built as extras alongside the existing accessible toilets. The reason they are also marked as accessible toilets is because if you're gonna build a bunch of individual toilets, it seems remiss to not make them accessible. There are definitely accessibility issues at Sussex Uni (the library, for one!). I am in no way saying they are perfect, because they are not. But none of the issues stem from the accessible gender neutral toilets.

This from someone studying human rights?!? Thank goodness you finally signed up to mumsnet for the sake of your twitter feed. May I suggest you dedicate a bit of time to understanding more about the lives of the people you are passing off as secondary to your very narrow definition of 'public life' as you put it?

Would you be at all concerned that you are demonstrating a fundamentally disablist attitude and doing it publicly which may prove unwise given your chosen study subject?

Please say yes, please take the time to look into why and please understand that I am taking time out of my life to try to ask you to stop being one of the many who make my family's life harder than it needs to be through ignorance.

This is what an accessible toilet is
This is why they are needed
This is what is happening to the few in existence
This is what you need to stop doing

There but for the grace...

gendercritter · 20/09/2018 17:44

I'm sure you didn't mean that the way it sounds

Gosh, no. That was not very sensitively worded at all. Sorry and thank you for flagging that up.

It was supposed to be two separate points. As in a) rw is clearly making assumptions about mums which need addressing because how ridiculous to think mums are stupid/ignorant/out of touch and b) we're a very diverse community of women in any case so don't waste time making assumptions about who you're talking to on here because it's not one homogenous group (I would bet many think MN = white, middle class women who haven't worked in 15 years and who all have 2.4 children)

I should have taken more time over that paragraph, sorry.

drspouse · 20/09/2018 17:55

I wonder if rw's lecturers are on MN...

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/09/2018 17:57

It's fine, gendercritter. I kinda guessed you didn't mean it like that. Didn't sound like you. It just really took me aback.

gendercritter · 20/09/2018 18:06

It takes thought sometimes to realise that what's in my head hasn't automatically made it onto the page. Blush I couldn't have more respect for the many incredible mums who take part in this debate here. It makes me angry how little regard society has for women especially after they've given birth. And it's even more depressing when that attitude is evident in another woman who considers herself to be thoughtful and inclusive because she includes men in her feminism, unlike the silly old women of Mumsnet.

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2018 18:22

Still, I'll give you a cookie for listening to the paragraph advice.

Grin
Happityhap · 20/09/2018 18:28

There is nothing I've ever heard of where there should be any discrimination or segregation on the basis of 'gender' whatever.

My local council informed me that UK law treats 'sex' and 'gender' as being the same thing.
I asked them to point me to somewhere confirming that and they have not yet done so.
If anyone can confirm or refute that, I'd be very grateful.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 20/09/2018 18:30

I like this bit:

"Universities are places for anyone to learn, without facing attacks based on their identity - pretty simple"

On a thread about Misogyny ie good old fashioned sex based oppression - which we aren't allowed to talk about any more because biological sex is like soooooooooooooo last season and entirely irrelevant.

Swipe left for the next trending thread