This is wrong right?

[DukeOfSussex]

If your teenage daughter had her first week at the University of Sussex this week this is what found in her welcome bag.

A Pot Noodle, A tablet of washing detergent, a sim card and an individual sized portion of instant coffee.

AND

A picture of a woman designed to look like she has spunk dripping down her face to sell toothbrushes. "whether you spit or swallow during your twice daily oral regime..."

She'll also find a drinks night event by the Student union being advertised all over campus. It has a picture of a dead eyed half naked woman laying in an empty bath...which advertises what? Fuck knows.

She will also find a copy of the student newspaper in her bag. On the front cover at the very top of the page is an article entitled "Transphobia and toilets". This is discussing the recent words of University of Sussex philosophy professor Kathleen Stock who dared to very (politely) question some aspects of trans theory.

Your daughter, if disabled, will also be concerned to see that some of the disabled toilets have been declared "for all genders". Which is lovely and inclusive but not ideal if you're disabled and need a wee and need to wait for an able bodied non binary male wearing lipstick to go for a shit first.

She will find that the "This Sussex Girl Can" all women only classes are open to all "women, trans gender people and non binary individuals" so just mixed classes basically .

So far so expected of university in general but what upsets me is that people wanted Kathleen Stock's job for having an opinion. She caused students to feel "unsafe" with her very words, but in a world where women are literally unsafe and sexual assault is endemic in universities, Sussex student union didn't think twice before objectifying its female students. If your employer gave you a goody bag with this card in it you could rightfully be making a formal complaint to your HR department. Why is it appropriate for university?

We can't discuss why it's always a woman advertising drinks, or toothbrushes without discussing women and the group of people who actually deal with the real repercussions of being women. It's a bloody joke.Why don't people care about actual sexism, real life objectification of women.

WE NEED AN EDIT BUTTON MN

I will reply once to the comments I have received, and then I am out of here (I have a paper to write, and need to stop getting distracted). Apologies if I don't reply to what you have said - there are a lot of them. I don't really feel the need to respond to the wide variety of ad hominem arguments. Yes, I did a degree in Law with Spanish at Sussex. Yes, I am now studying my masters in International Human Rights Law in the Netherlands. In fact, I wrote my first thesis (the one in Spanish) on the impact of the law on trans and non-binary people in England and Wales and Spain. I don't see why you feel the need to make any assumptions about my levels of intelligence. It doesn't exactly contribute to the conversation, does it?

1. Self-identification doesn't "let men into toilets". When have you EVER been required to show your Government ID in order to go into a toilet? That is all self-ID is, being able to change the gender marker on your passport/ID without having to go through a years-long ordeal of trying to prove your identity to a panel. Ireland already has it - see: www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/15/monumental-change-ireland-transformed-transgender-rights

1. Singular, gender neutral toilets put no-one in danger. Plus, they are also beneficial to men, as they usually include a baby-changing facility!

1. From the way you assume they live their lives, it seems clear that most of you don't have trans or non-binary friends. If you can, I deeply encourage you to speak to someone with these experiences, as it will be way more insightful than anything you read online. Many people are straight up afraid of public toilets, and don't use them, because they are worried of being policed by people like you. See this article for some insight: www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bransonlb/i-got-kicked-out-of-a-ymca-locker-room-twice-because-im

1. One of you seemed to suggest that my response was tone-policing. I refute that claim. I don't care about "asking nicely" - be as fucking outraged as you want about that shitty toothpaste ad! But that doesn't give you a free pass to be transphobic.

1. A few of you referenced biology. This argument is as old as time - saying "uh, biology!!!!" clearly shows that you have done zero research into the science behind trans identities. Biologists agree that sex and gender are separate concepts, and that identities outside of cisgender exist and are valid. There is a wealth of stuff online relating to this - the World Health Organisation has some good stuff, so you can take a look at that. I've also included a couple of links on ongoing research, but scientists are also nowhere near done, so stay tuned!

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-biology/born-this-way-researchers-explore-the-science-of-gender-identity-idUSKBN1AJ0F0 www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027

1. I am not "appropriating" this into a "trans thread" - OP did that when they went on a transphobic rant.

1. Universities are places for anyone to learn, without facing attacks based on their identity - pretty simple. And if you think the idea that words can have a harmful effect on other human beings is one for toddlers, I worry for your children's classmates, and for anyone who encounters you.

1. I'm confused by the "how babies are made" point - this has no bearing on gender identity. Sex and gender are separate concepts. Another comment mentioned the idea that "humans can't change sex". That isn't the point - gender identity has nothing to do with your sex markers. But if you do wanna look into that, have a google - there's some good stuff online. E.g. if we consider biological sex as made up of: chromosomes, genitals, gonads, hormones, and secondary sex characteristics, then the idea that sex cannot change seems wrong. One can change their genitals surgically, can have their gonads removed, can alter their hormones, and can change their secondary sex characteristics. So the only marker left is chromosomes. Plus, this ignores the fact that this list of sex markers isn't black and white - plenty of people are born with a mixture of those sex markers. This includes intersex people, people with chromosomal differences (i.e. XXY and so on), people with hormone conditions, people born without gonads, and people lacking secondary sex characteristics. So whilst biological sex doesn't have a bearing on gender identity, your understanding of it is also limited.

1. One of you doubted that people felt unsafe in a class run by a transphobe. Yes, unsafe. Unsafe is not a synonym for "about to be physically assaulted". They felt unsafe. No doubt, many of them also feel unsafe walking the streets at night!

10. Another person claimed that only people with vaginas face misogyny. That is blatantly not true, and can be disproved by a simple dictionary search. The majority of people who face misogyny are women. Women do not all have vaginas. Misogyny is also faced by people who are femme presenting. A sexist man does not stop to check my identity or what's in my pants before he calls me a dumb bitch on the street. Plus, misogyny is an institutional issue as well as an individual one, and research shows that trans people face these institutional blockades (including trans women facing institutional misogyny). See the Stonewall report that I have linked, and other resources on their website.

11. One of you brought prayer rooms into the discussion. I do not see how the students' union and the university providing facilities for people of all religions has any bearing on this conversation. Unless your aim was just to derail the point with a sly bit of Islamophobia?

12. The concern about facilities for disabled people is the most valid one. I completely understand your worries - our society has been built for able-bodied people, and thus has completely exluded people with disabilities from public life. My point was that the gender neutral toilets were purpose built as an addition. As you said, why can't they be an addition - they are! They were built as extras alongside the existing accessible toilets. The reason they are also marked as accessible toilets is because if you're gonna build a bunch of individual toilets, it seems remiss to not make them accessible. There are definitely accessibility issues at Sussex Uni (the library, for one!). I am in no way saying they are perfect, because they are not. But none of the issues stem from the accessible gender neutral toilets.

13. Finally, many of you asked for sources. I have posted a few links, and will also post this one: www.stonewall.org.uk/lgbt-britain-trans-report, which is a report from Stonewall on the issues and violence that trans people in the UK face. But also, if you do actually want to read more resources, I urge you to have a google and see what comes up. There's so much great stuff out there, I cannot link you to it all!

I hope I managed to answer some of your questions. I really don't want this thread to turn into a nasty argument when it is a great chance for learning from each other. Take a look at some of the resources I posted, and definitely do your own googling because my ability to post a wealth of resources is limited. Here are a couple more, just to finish off:
www.huffingtonpost.com/kelsie-brynn-jones/transexclusionary-radical-terf_b_5632332.html?guccounter=1
fembotmag.com/2014/10/27/8-amazing-responses-on-being-intersex-from-emily-quinn/
www.gal-dem.com/tag/transgender/

Thanks for listening!

Aw duke
I am so glad you have gone viral
This neede£ to be viral
🔥🔥🍺

Hey just have a look around here

Chance to learn

Yup - this did need to be picked up and if it makes some other ignoramus stop and think before representing women in a porn soaked manner, then that's a small mercy.

@BrushboxUK

there was never any suggestion or intention (consciously or unconsciously) to be derogatory towards women in any way shape or form,

Guess what, you got it wrong and it was derogatory. Don't do it again.

Biologists agree that sex and gender are separate concepts,

So do radical feminists! Shocker.

But as none of us have ever identified as having a gender we have used the term always used to denote adult human female, "woman".
See. Radfems are the nonbinaries of the olden days.

It is transactivists who have taken away our identity. Turned "woman" in to a feeling none of us have. If radfems were all twenty and male, then maybe someone would give a shit about that.

We just realise that women aren't oppressed for their gender, they are oppressed for their vaginas.

The word "transphobic" means fuck all to me.

Believe in the existence of men and women? Think men and women are socialised differently as well as having different biology? Think women deserve scholarships and sports and resources of their own?

That's exactly the same thing in TRA/woke world as saying YOU HATE TRANS PEOPLE AND WANT THEM TO DIE YOU VILLAIN.

So I just ignore it now as a word.

Do they not teach etymology at Sussex?
What about reading comprehension?

All those words in response, yet none of them actually addressing any of the comments or questions made.

Sad face.

11. One of you brought prayer rooms into the discussion. I do not see how the students' union and the university providing facilities for people of all religions has any bearing on this conversation. Unless your aim was just to derail the point with a sly bit of Islamophobia?

What I wrote was this, for the record as you're hoping people won't read and then you can misrepresent me with slurs of "islamphobe" with no reason.

"It is a very diverse campus and they have a prayer room for Muslim students with separate, key coded, sex segregated entrances. It goes without saying that there will be many young women who are unable to make use of certain areas such as locker rooms and bathrooms because they will be confronted by males. When men want sex segregated areas they get a key code though."

I then clarified my post 2 posts under:

"It goes without saying that there will be many young Muslim women who are unable to make use of certain areas such as locker rooms and bathrooms because they will be confronted by males."

Please tell me how caring about Muslim women is islamophobic?

Unisex facilities put women at risk:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Women do not all have vaginas.

Employ a bit of critical thinking.

Mumsnet is very well know for having a socialist leaning, anti austerity, feminist, anti racist, lesbian friendly bent.

So why do all these long term lovely women have a problem with this one issue?

All those words in response, yet none of them actually addressing any of the comments or questions made.

They used paragraphs this time though.

Also this is an interesting article for any lurkers to the thread.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-terf

They used paragraphs this time though.

*Waves to lurkers and journalists brought here by this story

Welcome!

Wondering why Mumsnet is accused of being a hotbed of transphobia by young, woke twitterati like the one who burst in a page or two ago to tell a bunch of ordinary mums and old school feminists that they are WRONG, WRONG WRONG?

Well, this is pretty good place to start:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

Welcome to the rabbit hole of batshittery that calls itself ‘Trans Rights Activism’ (despite throwing lots of actual transsexual people under the bus as it goes).

You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, you’ll be baffled at why so many young women are willing to make utter tits of themselves in defence of a creepy men’s sexual rights movement.

We’ll be on the other side of the radicalisation portal* with gin.

And biscuits

rw280

I'm very tempted to offer a considerable amount of money to people who spout muppetry like you to stick around, not say I'm not sticking around because reasons

You're talking here to lawyers, scientists, endocrinologists, politicians and, guess what, transpeople.

Your woeful display of sexism, ageism and classism has led you to believe publicly that we are all a bunch of pram pushing mummies who are stuck in the dark ages.

Shame on you, your education and your inability to use social media to widen your perspective.

But, for me, the absolute worst part of your post is the refusal to debate.

It's shockingly bad. Your argument is worthless unless you can refute a counter argument.

I don't even care too much about your silly argument, it's your refusal to know that you have to back it up.

Still, I'll give you a cookie for listening to the paragraph advice.

*we didn’t choose the moniker, but we did find it hilarious 😂

It's shockingly bad. Your argument is worthless unless you can refute a counter argument.

shh they studied law, that's 30 grand in student debt spunked up the wall don't make them cry.

Destroyed in Pendant's corner?

You mean Pedants' Corner. There are many MN pedants. Don't go there with a misplaced apostrophe!

For this I am truly sorry.

I bet she really appreciates that cookie Datun with the four likes she’s got on twitter that takes her up to five.

Do you know, rw, I don't give a shiny shit about someone's gender identity. You and your friends are trying to tell us that your identity - which is entirely in your heads incidentally, somehow overrides your sexed bodies. It doesn't.

Having said that, you and I agree that gender and sex aren't the same thing. Which is why I don't want male-sexed bodies in spaces meant for female-sexed bodies.

And just fyi, no one is 'assigned female at birth'. Girl babies are born with all their eggs - our amazing female bodies make them before we take our first breath. Our genitals are merely the outward manifestation of our internal biology.

Betty it makes me laugh when people describe the whole trans activism debacle as batshittery!😂😂 It is so apt. Especially the shit part.