Any Irish feeling a bit isolated...

[SuperStylin]

...for being critical of the gender critical?

The referendum was such a high but the repeal groups I was part of have gone on to become equality groups (I have no issue with equality but the issues they are fighting for seem in almost every case to be to the detriment of women)
It’s gone from such a high to such a low as it’s overwhelming how quickly people will dismiss you as transphobic for airing a genuine concern.

Wondered is there anyone in a similar situation or if you can point me in the direction of likeminded groups?

Yes on twitter all the comments are 'Irish feminism is inclusive' 'Irish feminism is intersectional' and worse again 'No Irish feminists think this way'.

It's a hive mind and they can't conceive that anyone would feel differently. I know that's because GC Irish feminists are fewer and much quieter but still the assumption that everyone is a like minded Borg is a very irritating one as is the belief that there's only one way to feminist correctly.

“also craven cap-doffing slaves of the colonial Brits and their terf rhetoric”

This is a theme that I’ve noticed coming up time and time again.

I’m from NI although I have lived, worked and have strong ties to RoI, so I don’t have any nationalistic pride for either British or Irish feminism.

This blind rejection of UK feminism as if it’s the same colonial injustice as the penal laws or the famine is pissing me off. Just because the Brits are doing something differently (and in my view, right) then Irish feminists must automatically take the opposite position

Also ironic given how many influential people in recent Irish "feminism" are American.

The UK sisters can't win. If they want to build links with us it's "colonialism" and - a recent monstrosity of a word- "tansplaining". If they stay away they're Ignoring Our Plight (the latter accusation was hurled by young women ignorant of the support networks that have always existed in the UK to help Irish women seeking terminations.)

None of it makes any sense. And they're all sucking up to some really hideous men in the process; men who do not have their interests at heart.

Are there any Irish academics, journalists, politicians or trade unionists speaking out about this? Apart from the likes of Roman Mullen, anyone that would actually be taken seriously?

I feel I was killed into a false sense of security by the Together For Yes campaign.

The only high profile Irish person I can think of who wouldn't be doing it for religious reasons but out of a wish to protect women is Glinner. He's UK based though of course.

Interestingly though one of the leading Irish doctors treating transgender people in Ireland did this interview recently. Sounds many notes of concern including the potential for social contagion.

The leading Irish doctor helping people change their sex has said that Ireland has a high rate of adults who regret their treatment and has called for greater support and resources to prevent post-operative remorse. Prof Donal O’Shea of St Vincent’s and St Colmcille’s hospitals in Dublin is currently treating three patients for post-op regret, and he is leading two of those three through painful reverse surgery. “The worst outcomes I have seen are those who have transitioned and have said ‘Oh dear, what have I done?’ or in some cases ‘Why did you let me do that?’ Transitioning needs to happen at a pace that is appropriate for the individual and that the diagnosis is absolutely correct.”

He also said that three transgender people have died by suicide in the past five years, two of whom had had surgery and the third was on hormone therapy.

He said the death of patients by suicide has a profound impact on him and staff at the centre. “It is very difficult. When you see someone who is doing very well and then hear that they are dead, it’s halting, it knocks you in your tracks, and affects everyone,” he said.

Prof O Shea said there is a rise in “gender confused” teenagers, rather than those who have true “gender dysphoria” and attributed this in part to “Kardashian culture” and the greater visibility and acceptability of trans-identity. He also said the portrayal of transgender people in cartoons and anime is also having an impact, with patients frequently reporting seeing “a character who believes that all their problems are rooted in gender and everything is great when they transition”. Prof O’Shea believes there needs to be greater support and resources including a dedicated clinic based in Ireland, to deal with the issues properly.

Meanwhile, forty Five Irish teenagers questioning their gender identity are currently availing of services in Britain. This represents a five-fold increase in the space of four years according to figures published by the Irish Mail on Sunday. Of the 45 children, 18 so far have moved on to receiving puberty blockers to suppress their normal sexual development and other hormone therapies to prepare them for a full sex change operation after they turn 18. In addition, 60 adults have travelled abroad for sex change operations since 2012. The HSE is funding these therapies and operations under the Travel Abroad Scheme as sex change operations are not currently available in Ireland.

I have been following CamilleLoftus on Twitter, I don't know if she has a public profile as such but she is articulate and seems well able to hold her own, could do with a few likes from us here :)

She's currently engaging on the "pregnant people" threads
twitter.com/CamilleLoftus/status/1042734756251807744

And that tweet sums it up really

"Except you know that it is entirely possible to provide in legislation for trans ppl without erasing women.
You've made that very point yourself.
There is no imperative to say that everyone who needs access to abortion must be included in a single term. It's a false construct."

storyboardoflife.wordpress.com/2018/02/22/an-open-letter-to-uk-feminists-we-need-to-talk/

I just wanted to put this on this thread too, Miriam Kivlehan's response to the "Irish Feminists" letter back earlier this year. I know some on this thread will have seen it at the time but for anyone coming new to this and looking for Irish GC women... There are people prepared to put their heads above the parapet, but they are damn isolated, like this thread's title says, and deserve our support where we can.

(I am living abroad now but am Irish and hope we can keep this thread going and maybe make some real-life connections too, and see what we can do about talking to people IRL who are not yet consumed by the "Irish Twitter" borg.)

Yes, I’m very keen to keep this thread going as well.

When the 8th debates were happening, my lovely very pro-life MIL went to the Save the 8th marches etc. When we talked about it, she said that sometimes she felt very alone in her opinions and it was nice to realise that other people felt the same way, and just as passionately.

I didn’t quite get it at the time, but now I totally understand what she meant, although from a different standpoint.

Hi All. Just parachuting in here incognito. Another pal has been on the site for a long time. I'm from rural Ireland but working in Dublin. I'm a Pro Choice Radical Feminist banned from Parents for Choice and listed on Repeal Shield for being a TERF! Have been meeting up with some radical GC feminists in Dublin this past 6months. Anyone interested in meeting up one-to-one or in a mixer with a few others, in Dublin, please message me. Happy to establish my credentials privately.

I've only today had a distressing conversation with a very mildly GC Irish friend living in England who posted the video about safe spaces for women on her FB page because she thought it was something that none of her feminist friends anywhere could object to. Well....

Several absolutely standard 'you're a terf, I'm incredibly fortunate to be a person who was assigned female by doctors at birth and now cis-gender standing by my trans sisters and hoping for a world in which we can all identify as anything we want to be' bollocks. Lots of statements about being feminists who wants equality for everyone whatever their gender. All straight out of the TA handbook and all from Irish women, many of them Irish lesbians.

Underlying a lot of it is old sectarian and anti-British stuff, because before they discovered transactivism and a feminism that centres men, most of the nastiest lot were heavily involved in pretty extreme Irish politics. They need someone to hate and this has given them new life.

What particularly distressed my friend is that the most cliched and aggressive response has already had 130 likes. My friend has about 40 friends so she's feeling totally overwhelmed. During our conversation she actually said to me: 'Maybe they're right. How can so many people be wrong?'

It's like the Stasi.

@thatdamnwoman can you direct your mate over here? She’s not alone!!!

@Eiru I might take you up on that

I think at the moment she's in hiding but I'll send her here to link up with you if she wants to.

Shit, your poor friend, thatdamnwoman. That kind of pile-on is not going to win any hearts and minds, is it? It seems they don't want to, they just want to shame and silence. I hope your friend notices the difference between their way of engaging and that of the GC women here and elsewhere.

Underlying a lot of it is old sectarian and anti-British stuff, because before they discovered transactivism and a feminism that centres men, most of the nastiest lot were heavily involved in pretty extreme Irish politics. They need someone to hate and this has given them new life.

I noticed this a bit during the repeal campaign, where the people I heard coming out with "pregnant people" were most often from the shouty end of SF or SWP (or whatever they're called these days). It was only a few individuals so I thought it was just a coincidence at the time, but now I wonder...

Hmm.

Anyone thinking about writing to their TD?

I’m back up North but still registered to vote in north Dublin. Our TD was v quick to reply to my email about the new maternity hospital at St Vincent’s when that was in the media.

What particularly distressed my friend is that the most cliched and aggressive response has already had 130 likes. My friend has about 40 friends so she's feeling totally overwhelmed. During our conversation she actually said to me: 'Maybe they're right. How can so many people be wrong?'

This above upsets me so much.

Also interested in the connection made between anti British sentiments. All of my second gen friends have struggled with this. Not feeling at home anywhere. Being shouted at in Ireland when they hear my Brit accent. Interesting this same prejudice is having an effect in this debate.

Another Irish GC feminist here. Not "out" in any way and feel like others above in that no one is having these conversations in real life. Dublin based too so would love to meet up if that happens.

I work in a large organisation and happened to come across our Trans policy recently, while looking for something else. It was drafted and adopted and published all with no notice at all and actually states that as a line manager, I can't ask anything to anyone struggling with gender issues, they can do as they like, dress as they like, request/ demand any role they like, use any facilities they like, etc. No mention of any impact on their colleagues at all!

Dinosaurkisses I thought you were doing really well in that exchange with Aidan. I think at this stage, even raising some questions in people's minds is good (not his, I mean other potential readers). They just end up looking like they are talking nonsense and getting worked up, if we keep our cool and stick to the arguments it might give some people pause for thought. We don't have to be perfect, or know everything at this stage to have an impact.

Thanks very much @JustAnotherSpartacus, I really appreciate that

That's shocking, the thought that a company can adopt a policy without looking at the impact on other employees.

My pal's been in and read through this thread and is feeling heartened. It was her first time posting anything GC and while she was braced for a lack of likes and maybe one or two people disagreeing she hadn't anticipated the Irish pile-on.

I looked at the Amnesty Ireland's pregnant people tweets and noticed one that said:

It's really frustrating to have people who don't understand Irish feminism telling us that cis women are being erased.

Is there something distinct about Irish feminism? Has there been a radical tradition there in the past or did the mainland UK feminism of the 60s and 70s and 80s pass the ROI by? Maybe they went straight from being in thrall to the Catholic church to 90s feminism lite.

After a quick count, there’s seems to be at least 35 of us (36 including thatdamnwoman’s chum, waves!)

That’s roughly 30 more than I knew of a few days ago!

You are welcome dinosaur. I have also felt very isolated in Ireland, and most people around me think I am a bigot etc. Very frustrating. It is obvious on this thread that we are out there.

I had been thinking of starting a thread about Ireland and the trans movement, specifically legislation issues and the like, as people could take actions like writing to their TD's on specific issues. I have done this myself (no success, but I intend to follow up).

ThatDamnWoman, I think you have a point there. I don't think there has been a very strong, ideologically developed, feminist movement here since the 70's and early 80's. This is my impression, and I was active myself a bit in this area in the 90's and early 00's and really it was quite small, and I think somewhat academic, and third sector (sane academic, not the queer theory nonsense of now).

I think as well a lot of people who have been around for years have had more ups and downs, so more humility, so I wonder if that would make them less cocky? There have been some relatively easy successes for younger feminists recently (not easy, but definitely more going with the flow than against, as in previous generations). Having said that, some of the vocal woke people now are not young and should know better.

I don't really know enough about specific individuals now to know where they are getting their nonsense. I saw a few threads today on twitter which i thought nailed it, including the Camille Loftus one mentioned above. I will see if I can find another one I am thinking of.

Blog by gender critical Irish woman stormforcefeminist.wordpress.com/

This twitter thread is epic twitter.com/raggagirly/status/1042736274661105664 Nailed it I think(this is just part of it):

"Meanwhile back at the ranch, real ordinary feminists fight on alone, and are attacked and bullied and sneered and derided because we won't jump on the latest hurtling bandwagon for kudos and props. If a feminist is not campaigning on issues, then they are not feminist. They have weaponised feminism for their own ends. To get on boards, to get on all women shortlists, to get the same obscene salaries as the men get, and to feather their own nests. They are not feminists, they are fakes, and charlatans.

... My experience of UK women is that they helped Irish feminists like to raise money for food, travel, accomadation etc for Irish women going over to the U for abortions. When it wasn't safe, or trendy, or popular. So to see the fakers now jump on this to prove how fake woke they are is hilarious."

I’ve been quietly reading this here in Dublin.

Thank you for putting this out there.

I’d read Glinner’s tweets and the reactions to him, and wondered ‘did I miss a memo? Am I not getting something?’ I am watching from the sidelines as I feel I invested so much in #repealthe8th and admired the vocal leaders and champions of that cause, that I feel doubtful and disillusioned that ‘we’ have now moved on to ‘the next item on the agenda.’

Yes Snip Snip, no sooner was the abortion referendum over than women were being put back in their place.