Any Irish feeling a bit isolated...

[SuperStylin]

...for being critical of the gender critical?

The referendum was such a high but the repeal groups I was part of have gone on to become equality groups (I have no issue with equality but the issues they are fighting for seem in almost every case to be to the detriment of women)
It’s gone from such a high to such a low as it’s overwhelming how quickly people will dismiss you as transphobic for airing a genuine concern.

Wondered is there anyone in a similar situation or if you can point me in the direction of likeminded groups?

I'd love to meet some like minded people gcf women and I'm in the Dublin area too. I totally understand the fears so many have about meeting; luckily work, etc wouldn't be too much of an issue for me if I was outed.

I'm feeling somewhat reassured by some of these posts.

I'm coming to Ireland for work for a couple of weeks soon. It's been around 15 years since my last visit so there's been a lot of social change since I was last there.

I did a work trip to Canada last year and had been concerned about the trans lobby there and how my trip would be affected but in actuality it was fine, hopefully Ireland will be the same.
I'll feel obliged to keep my opinions to myself if the subject comes up in the workplace, although I'll be mostly working in Co Cork and Waterford city so it's probably unlikely that it will.

Are gender neutral toilets the norm there now, even outside of Dublin?

Are gender neutral toilets the norm there now, even outside of Dublin?

Definitely not. Unless on college campuses.

Although some of the more 'right on' businesses, particularly in the tech sector, might also have them. They aren't widespread in public places generally though.

I think that’s part of the issue- there hasn’t been any real push outside of universities etc to move towards true gender neutral facilities, so people don’t understand what the problem is.

We moved to new offices in Dublin last year and they installed GN toilets- someone just sent an email round the office saying they weren’t sharing the toilets with boggin men and it was decided the loos to the left were for Mná and those to the right for the boys. Everyone was in agreement and so it stood.

Gender neutral toilets aren't the norm anywhere, even in Dublin, unless they're as a third space: that is, additional gender neutral / unisex toilets (often repurposed disabled toilets, which is another issue) alongside single sex male and female toilets. Many large public spaces, such as universities and some hospitals, have introduced gender neutral toilets in this way while still preserving single sex provision. Most private companies, pubs, etc. have done nothing new, often because their disabled toilet is already unisex.

The idea of relabelling only the female toilets as gender neutral, while leaving the male toilets alone, does not seem to have caught on here. I'm sure some Students' union or similarly woke bar somewhere has tried it but I haven't heard of it (yet).

Thanks both.
dinosaur, that made me smile.

NUIG went for gender neutral loos earlier in the year I think, but other than hipster bars I don't think they are much of an issue.

We moved to new offices in Dublin last year and they installed GN toilets- someone just sent an email round the office saying they weren’t sharing the toilets with boggin men and it was decided the loos to the left were for Mná and those to the right for the boys. Everyone was in agreement and so it stood.

Lol, yes! This is the kind of low-key pragmatism that I've also encountered here when it comes to trans issues.

To make a sweeping generalisation about Irish culture , there's a pretty low tolerance for people taking the piss. Anyone with "notions" tends to get short shrift, and there's a cultural norm of collectively ignoring rules that seem pointless or ill-thought out (water charges, anyone?). None of it lends itself to automatic acceptance of trans ideology, I think.

Mother the NUIG gender neutral toilets are third space, alongside single sex ones. There was a bit of a kerfuffle about them repurposing disabled toilets as disabled/gender-neutral. Same story in other colleges.

Thanks, Mar (it's odd to type that, my great aunt is known as Mar ) that does sound familiar now you say it. I obviously remember the kerfuffle rather than the details.

I am so happy to have found you - alone no more . I suppose I would fall under the GC banner as well. Like so many of you I was involved in the Repeal movement and the previous marriage referendum. I am a supporter of trans rights but not at the expense of women's rights and safeguarding measures. I have a growing sense of disquiet over where this seems to be going and that any attempt to discuss gender critically is met with shouts of 'Terf' of 'transphobe'.

I have a teenager and this is discussed a lot within her peer group. It is almost like a belief system and teens are so vulnerable and impressionable. Luckily she talks to me a lot as well and we can discuss it in a way that I think is getting the message through but it is really tough on kids out there right now. It is a fecking head wreck.

I'm a Brit of Irish heritage and with some family in Ireland and I'm a little bit fascinated at the difference in attitudes. My theory is, while Ireland was in the grips of the church's power in the '80s, other stuff was going on in the UK - there was the Islington scandal - where left wing people covered up and ignored sexual abuse www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/jul/06/children.childprotection, there was the PIE thing www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10659169/Harriet-Harman-admits-paedophile-group-joined-her-civil-liberties-group-in-the-1970s.html. In the UK, older women know abuse and abusive behaviour can be carried out by supposedly liberal, left wing people and useful idiots can be manipulated. We've seen it before. I think in Ireland people are so horrified by the church's cover ups and behaviour, they have swapped one sacred cow for another. Obviously just my opinion. Also just in case anyone thinks I am conflating trans with paedophilia, I'm not ... but I do think sawing off teenage girls' breasts and stopping women's rights to challenge men in women's spaces by calling them bigots has some interesting parallels with this time. Be interested to know what Irish women think (cos I can't discuss it with my cousins!)

Lena you've got it. I've been saying for ages that people have just swapped one cultish dogma for another. And it's true; there is possibly naivety about how authoritarian and illiberal and misogynistic the Left can be, because it wasn't a strong political or cultural force until recently.

Agree with Lena and pachyderm.
Also Brit with (very pronounced) Irish heritage.

Interesting to know Patchy ... I have to be careful as one my relatives is very political and men's rights (under the guise of being liberal). As a Brit (all be it one with an Irish passport who has been brought up with a lot of Irish culture around me), obviously I have to be very careful of criticising Irish feminism. Also, I suspect there is a very small trans community in Ireland and apart from in larger cities, cultural norms prevent autogynaphiles from being too brazen. For now. So the public won't realise. They won't realise until too late. Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread. I really hope you women find each other. x

Respectfully disagree, lena.

If you were right about Irish people swapping one sacred cow for another, then you'd have people of all ages holding trans dogma sacred. That's not happening. Not in the slightest - this thread is full of examples of how the wider public are not engaging at all in identity politics. Away from social media and perpetual campaigners (who were useful in repealing the 8th but now don't want to relinquish the spotlight and are looking for a new bandwagon to jump on), there is no appetite for it. We have no LOJ in mainstream media, for instance.

There's a very big difference between being a British person of Irish heritage who visits Ireland and an Irish person who actually lives in Ireland here and now. That's perhaps why your judgement seems a bit off.

Mardhea most people have never even thought about the subject and the GRA 2015 went through with no public consultation or discussion whatsoever. So the majority haven't had the chance to critique it. What I was referring to (and I'm Irish living in Ireland) was those who actively engage in campaigning and their slavish acceptance of trans ideology the way their grandparents would've been saying the rosary every night. There's a lack of critical thinking which is really resonant for those of us who remember the bad old days.

Considerable damage has been done though it mightn't seem obvious at first- there are some really troubling scenarios unfolding in schools with young people, according to friends who work in education. I know it might seem Irish people won't put up with too much nonsense but we already have self-id. We don't have LOJ but we have "Dr" Panti Bliss spouting his misogyny about "terfs" all over Twitter, I don't know which is more embarrassing.....

What's LOJ?

I agree with patchyderm - the trans agenda is already built into policy documents by many relevant state agencies/government departments.

My children are very young, but I dread the time for them to go to secondary school, when all this stuff is well-embedded and accepted/promoted.

National Parents Council Post Primary [http://www.npcpp.ie/information-for-schools/making-schools-inclusive-to-transgender-students]
Dept of Edu Being LGBT in School

I am only slowly starting to go through as many policy docs as I can, see where the trail leads (I know already, sigh).
All helped along by BelongTo and Glen etc - it has been going on for years. I suspect Irish ality legislation is not as strong as the UK - it refers to gender, not sex. (it is a muddle actually

*(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:

(a) that one is male and the other is female (the “gender ground”)*
[http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/enacted/en/print.html]

I don't know what to make of it, and I don't know where to start with figuring out what the 2015 self ID legislation means in practice. (I totally missed that passing, as did most. As was stated above, people are too busy working, rearing children and keeping on the treadmill of life, and so much of this looks harmless on the surface.)

My only hope is that the challenges come from health officials taking an evidence-based medicine point of view, especially wrt the transing of children and prescribing of medications.
Sorry, this is all a bit muddled and I am really just starting to get my head around how to start fighting back. I have a close friend who is as aware as I am, but otherwise, I haven't talked to anyone else about this in real life.

But this site has been an inspiration. It was mentioned on another Irish parenting site a while back as being full of 'Terfs' by a very worthy regular poster (This site does need a Rolling Eyes emoji) but I don't think she realised that she had essentially directed most of the Irish Mammy GC lurkers to a safe haven!

If anyone has any thoughts on the state of the Irish legal situation please do post - It is weird knowing so much about the UK situation but bugger all about our own.

My only hope is that the challenges come from health officials taking an evidence-based medicine point of view, especially wrt the transing of children and prescribing of medications.

This article was in the Irish Mail on Sunday reproduced on this website a few months ago extra.ie/2018/06/04/lifestyle/health/sex-change-surgery-regrets-ireland
The lead Dr seems to know what the stakes are the dangers of all this but then you have TENI and woke politicians behind the scenes trying to completely remove any kind of therapy before surgery

LOJ is Little Owen Jones, the King of Woke! He fecking runs the Guardian these days it would appear, and his Twitter blocklist is legendary. Other Mumsnet nickname: Sanctimonious Morph.

Re Irish lobby groups - there are strong links with US and UK transactivists, and funding. TENI and TELI are closely linked for example. Again, I find it funny how prickly Irish woke people got about the supposed "UK Terfs" they had to prevent from speaking this year, as though their causes aren't heavily influenced and funded from overseas. You can't have it both ways!

"Panti Bliss" - wtaf?!

What I was referring to (and I'm Irish living in Ireland) was those who actively engage in campaigning and their slavish acceptance of trans ideology the way their grandparents would've been saying the rosary every night.

Oh yes, I totally agree about those muppets individuals. Some people just like being told what to think.

In every society, there always seems to be a group who are afraid to think for themselves and instead prefer to find some orders to follow, whether it's from the church, Scientology, the communist party, the Republican Party, TRAs...

Mardhea absolutely wasn'my intention to claim to be an expert on Ireland. Hope it didn't come across as such. But I am an interested observer and I do agree with Patchy's analysis. I also maintain that the fact the left in the U.K. have been infiltrated by those with abusive aims before, means British GC feminists have been able to speak up faster.

SunsetBeetch

"Panti Bliss" - wtaf?!

Ha ha my sister foams at the mouth at the very mention of Panti Bliss - "Fucking Panti Bliss it's so fucking Irish that everyone thinks he's* fucking wonderful because he dresses in fucking drag FFS!" I'm genuinely surprised he hasn't put himself forward in the presidential race, and what's more he'd probably win.

The ad agencies in Ireland love drag, they manage to shove drag 'artists' into ads for everything.

*not misgendering - he's drag, not trans.