MNHQ: I'd like to start a thread about the reality of phalloplasty without it being deleted

[BarrackerBarmer]

MNHQ has already deleted one thread "not in the spirit".

Fair enough.

Please lay out exactly how I can start a thread about phalloplasty, with images (of arms, not of penises).
This is important. Thousands of girls are identifying as boys, and the medical pathway for those girls includes breastbinding, double mastectomies, hysterectomies and phalloplasties.

Guidance from many institutions is unquestioning affirmation.

I want to discuss this. Truthfully.

Tell me how I can do this without MNHQ deleting my thread and I will follow your rules to the letter.

Or tell the thousands of women on this site that we are forbidden from discussing the outcome of SRS for girls entirely.

What are your rules please?

Oh, so glad you've asked this. I was thinking of doingbthe same.

I'll report this thread and ask for a response.

I agree it’s something we need to discuss. I don’t get why your original thread was deleted, was it the image? I’ve seen it on Twitter and yes it’s graphic but it’s the reality of what this procedure involves and IMO it’s horiffic.

How is it 'not in the spirit'?

If it is a thing that girls are aiming for, surely talking about it IS in the spirit?

I don't know why Destinysdaughter.
I put a graphic images warning in the header.
Everyone who clicked on the thread did so knowingly.

For those who didn't see the thread, the image was of an arm.

I’m guessing here, but I’d assume it’s because any attempt to discuss the negative aspects of transition is considered goady and upsetting to the people with their fingers in their ears singing “la la la”.

The creeps will be reporting and reporting.
Twas ever thus.
But we're not being silenced are we?

Evening Barracker and thanks for asking the question.

We understand that you want to discuss the subject and absolutely don't want to stop you doing that. But the picture you used in your OP was fairly hard hitting and we got a fair few reports from folk who were upset by it. We know you posted a warning but still...

We also appreciate that it's already been circulated elsewhere and that you were using it to discuss your point. That said, given that this is a photo of a person who could end up reading the thread, we didn't think that basing the discussion on them in particular was in the spirit.

Any chance you could start the new thread without the pic?

As we've said, there's absolutely no reason why you can't start a thread discussing the subject of phalloplasty, if you wish to do so.

We just ask that you please stay within our Talk Guidelines.

Good question, Barracker. I remember stumbling upon a pdf issued by a group of surgeons (in a private practice in this country, IIRC) in the spirit of "informed consent" detailing what every stage of the process involved - hysterectomy, oophorectomy, removing the vagina, surgically closing the gap in the perineum, medioplasty (may have spelled that wrong - the operation to detach the clitoris from the surrounding tissue once it has become enlarged under the influence of testosterone) and ultimately, different techniques for phalloplasty.

It also detailed potential risks, and possible loss of sexual function at each stage (because the female orgasm involves responses in a great many parts of the female reproductive system, not just the clitoris).

It was an interesting document because it was produced by surgeons actually doing these procedures, for money, so clearly not an anti-trans document - and it was still something that left me horrified.

In a world where various organisations are going into primary schools and authoring books about happy trans penguins and parties with balloons when you transition, and where the BBC is producing documentaries (I am Leo) which make it all look like a walk in the park, I think we desperately need to be able to talk about the medical reality of these procedures.

My feeling, having read what's involved, is that they should be an absolute last resort for that very small minority of people whose dysphoria is so severe that there is no other option. Not something glossed over as being as easy as changing your pronouns.

Hmmm.
Thanks for responding LouMumsnet

The picture is pretty fundamental really, not that particular one - which I had redacted all identifying information from - but any picture of post operative arms from this procedure.

I'd rather you helped me find a way to include pictures - of arms, not genitalia - with whatever warning you feel is adequate.

I'm not comfortable to add links as these can lead to identifying actual people, even if they have made their images public, as this person did.

I want to find a way we can do this, with your agreement.

Ah -cross post with Lou MN - thanks for the clarification, Lou.

So (in the unlikely event my limited google-fu could throw up the document in question) presumably it would be okay to post a link - it contains only line drawings and diagrams, not photos.

I remember stumbling upon a pdf

Could you remember the link?

Those arm scars are horrific. But not so horrific a group of women should be protected from them.

It seems like people share images regularly - are these detransitioners? There seems to be some regret?

I just googled "phalloplasty arm scar" and saw enough just in thumbnails.
You don't really need to post a picture - just tell people what search criteria you want then to see. Keeps the mods happy and you get your point across?

I am sorry it was deleted. I only saw a similar image quite recently and I was so profoundly shocked. We need to understand the reality of 'bottom surgery'

It's not the link I was thinking of, but this one has some diagrams (and a couple of grainy black and white photos - nothing that would identify an individual as far as I can see).

is.muni.cz/th/upj4h/Ranno.pdf?so=nx

Interestingly the word "orgasm" is not used at all - "sexual function" is only mentioned in connection with getting the various implanted structures necessary to get the neo-phallus erect, with no mention of whether the patient enjoys the resulting sexual function.

Still haven't managed to track down the original document, but there's a lot of stuff if you google "surgery for phalloplasty pdf" (some of the peer-reviewed literature is behind paywalls, obviously, but there are quite a few papers which are available in complete form.)

This link is quite informative, and doesn't pull any punches about side effects and how good the end results are likely to be (despite, or perhaps - informed consent and all that - because of being aimed at people wanting this surgical technique).

Safe to look at in most circs - no pictures, just verbal descriptions.

www.healthline.com/health/transgender/phalloplasty#risks-and-complications

Omg! I just googled phalloplasty arm scars.

Am siting here in tears. These poor girls. How is this not state/doctor organised self harm?

And this is just the tip of the iceberg- add in scars for the actual phalloplasty, hysterectomy and the breast removal! Fucking hell! It's nothing short of mutilation.

There's a twitter thread going on now, but I don't dare link or even mention the names to search! I think it has images of someone with a substantial YouTube output detailing their surgeries which I will have a look at later but the photos are grotesque. I have seen comparable arm damage following extreme events like severe burns or life threatening infections. Why would it be a good idea to harvest the skin and flesh from your arm, leaving it looking like something from a medical student's post dissection cadaver so you could have a poor facsimile of male genitalia hanging from your nether regions?

Yeah I stupidly googled it too. Jesus.

Even Fermat's link makes brutal reading without pictures.

So as a society we try to help people who self harm or who starve their bodies to heal, and get better...unless the magic T word is uttered in which case we just get the knife out? Wow.

I looked up FTM surgery side effects after I read your post Barracker.

It is not only the original surgery, but the fact that there is clear discussion about maybe needing ‘revisions’ done.

Why, why oh why are people not counselled against this?

The other side of the coin is that if surgery is so bad, this is where the impetus for self-ID comes from. Hence, one can transition without medical intervention. Here I come to the sticking point -transition from what to what? A concept of feminine to a concept of masculine? Why not just do away with these concepts and be who you are? What gateways does becoming a concept of masculine open (or leaving a concept of feminine close)?

I was particularly at one surgeon’s website which described a hysterectomy as a gender-reassignment surgery. I am really very sure that is not why surgeons started doing hysterectomies. Oh, and it mentioned the ‘liberation’ of the testerone enlarged clitoris to become a penis. The language alone is mind-boggling - does a clitoris need liberating? Surely women’s liberation was and is about more than taking a scalpel to their nether regions and creating a facsimile of male genitals.

I googled it. Geezo.

I feel ill having googled.
I can't believe this is happening.

Sadly there are many post-surgical suicides from females that have had this procedure. Arm scars are probably the least of it, I would suspect no sexual enjoyment, as well as a useless psuedo-phallus.

In a world where various organisations are going into primary schools and authoring books about happy trans penguins and parties with balloons when you transition, and where the BBC is producing documentaries (I am Leo) which make it all look like a walk in the park, I think we desperately need to be able to talk about the medical reality of these procedures.

Well said Fermats. The reality/result is very much glossed over. Older feminists will remember being critical of the gynae profession for all the unnecessary hysterectomies. Now the profession have a more socially-approved way of doing the same, and worse.