MNHQ: I'd like to start a thread about the reality of phalloplasty without it being deleted

[BarrackerBarmer]

MNHQ has already deleted one thread "not in the spirit".

Fair enough.

Please lay out exactly how I can start a thread about phalloplasty, with images (of arms, not of penises).
This is important. Thousands of girls are identifying as boys, and the medical pathway for those girls includes breastbinding, double mastectomies, hysterectomies and phalloplasties.

Guidance from many institutions is unquestioning affirmation.

I want to discuss this. Truthfully.

Tell me how I can do this without MNHQ deleting my thread and I will follow your rules to the letter.

Or tell the thousands of women on this site that we are forbidden from discussing the outcome of SRS for girls entirely.

What are your rules please?

I fear that by rejecting self-Id and pushing for transition to be medicalised, the message would be that a young person transitioning HAS to have surgery to be accepted as they want to be accepted.

S/he would have then to be absolutely committed on a far deeper level than social acceptance of her/him as a man to go through with the surgery.

For all it’s horrors, I am moving more towards the idea of using chosen pronouns and accepting binders so that if young transitioning women change their mind, they don’t have to do much more than back-pedal socially. And if that means a society where genitals don’t match ‘genders’ - at least there wouldn’t be 100s of young people undergoing that traumatising surgery just to be accepted as the men their dysphoria tells them they are.

I know it isn’t the answer but we aren’t going to win this with absolutes. And I know it is a very unpopular opinion on here but the polarisations of the arguments are so extreme. There is no way to consensus without some capitulation.

So we can’t stop them going down that route but we can try and leave the door open. They are our young people.

The only thing I would still fight for is woman’s sport, refuges, prisons and changing rooms. But not through blocking self-Id, but through insisting on using and developing the existing laws on sex-based exemptions.

when we started agreeing to treat body dysmorphia by changing the actual body surgically rather than treat the symptoms of the person who hated their perfectly functioning body parts, we paved the way to the same approach to body dysphoria.
surgeon removed limbs

The government needs holding to account for letting these organisations into schools where they are normalising this crap. They are actively grooming children in plain sight so that the vulnerable amongst them start along this path.
It is immoral, should be illegal and is child abuse - plain and simple.

I fear that by rejecting self-Id and pushing for transition to be medicalised, the message would be that a young person transitioning HAS to have surgery to be accepted as they want to be accepted

no, the way we stop this is by being clear with children that they cannot change sex.

by putting items like that revolting GIRES book in the bin where they belong and not in front of impressionable children

anyone who has read or provided that book to a child should be very ashamed of themselves indeed

and as for the people who wrote it...

no, the way we stop this is by being clear with children that they cannot change sex.
Yep, agreed 100%

I’ve seen pics like those before. It horrifies me. I have on occasion accidentally hurt my forearm (who hasn’t) and it is both really sensitive and gets in the way of normal life - you can’t easily live without moving your arm, and if it hurts to do so, you are in constant pain. Carpal tunnel syndrome is known to be really debilitating.

But people think that carving huge lumps of flesh, tissue and nerves out of such a sensitive and essential area of the body won’t hurt? And will heal without ongoing pain?

The only saving grace is that "bottom surgery" is acceptable to forego because so many are aware of its poor success rate.

I agree with that but it needs to be remembered that even if the vast majority of girls don't want to even contemplate bottom surgery, the fact that so many are taking T will still lead to massive complications. Your womb starts to atrophy and deteriorate on it, as I understand it.

What does a 23 or 24 year old woman do, when they've been on T for 8 years and they start experiencing that? Even if they don't want an appropriation if a penis, we have thousands of women who will inevitably have to have hysterectomies at young ages and live with the consequences of that for a lifetime.

I saw the photos elsewhere and yes they are extreme and deeply shocking. We must start talking to our children about the dangers of of trying to change their bodies to fit an impossible ideal. Agree that it starts with "cosmetic " surgeries, but these too create a world where having it all in is the goal and we must support the right for everyone to feel happier or more like "themselves" What rubbish, it is time to stand up against the butchers in this industry, tell our young people they are not going to get our support or money to do this and put every difficulty in their way. Yes show them the pictures of the reality of surgery . Campaign against every single purveyor of this barbaric mutilation of healthy bodies.

if young transitioning women change their mind, they don’t have to do much more than back-pedal socially.

I can attest how difficult this is. I came out as bisexual, soon discovered that if I wanted to fit in and make friends / get support then I had to be a lesbian, which I was for a while. It really didn't feel right but it took me maybe three years after feeling I needed to do something to "admit" it, and all that time I felt really uncomfortable. When I did start a relationship with a man I was cut off by lesbian "friends" and ended up in an abusive relationship with him that I didn't initially leave because I'd lost my friends over it and I felt I needed to make it work. Following this I had a breakdown. It's scary to walk away from your whole community and your support. I guess one practical thing that feminists can do is to provide some practical support and social opportunities for young women who are changing their minds.

'I fear that by rejecting self-Id and pushing for transition to be medicalised, the message would be that a young person transitioning HAS to have surgery to be accepted as they want to be accepted'

I agree with this- as does all of the talk about transwomen not passing, still having a penis etc not to mention the even more unpleasant 'man in a dress' type comments.

The problem with accepting binders is that they too do irreversible damage.
Not the same, it I had a badly fitted too small bra as a teenager due to emotional neglect. It led me to body dysmorphia where I would have considered surgery, albeit as I was not properly developed. If a too small bra stunts growth, I hate to think what binders do.
Well, I just googled it and it is back pain, shortness of breath, potential deformity, rashes and yeast infections, and in extreme cases, fractured ribs.

And as a phalloplasty is technically a ski graft there's a failure rate ie @5% drop off - might explain why some don't go for surgery

Aargh SKIN graft not ski !

The only thing I would still fight for is woman’s sport, refuges, prisons and changing rooms. But not through blocking self-Id, but through insisting on using and developing the existing laws on sex-based exemptions.

We then you have surrendered. Which is fine. But don't pass that off as being because of doing less harm to children. We prevent harm to children and young people by drawing lines and saying that no - this harm, any harm, to your precious perfect body in the name of some ill thought out philosophy is wrong.

You don't make people less likely to do something by making it easier and more socially acceptable. And anyone who says that is either a bit hard of thinking or disingenuous at best.

If this whole toxic movement is to pass, which must be a good thing, I also think that it might be via a "men can have periods too" , so that young women can resist medical intervention despite a full social transition.

It's not great but I'll take it if it is a means to an end. As long as sex-based rights aren't compromised along the way.

Can’t we debate this without calling each other names?

And penguins will apparently fuck anything, male or female and - interestingly - alive or dead - so I don't think they give much of a shit about being Polly or Tom. That penguin baby's authentic self is a necrophiliac. Maybe GIRES will put that in their second edition.

That was to CertainHalf

And where was this idealism when our daughters and sisters chase after breast augmentation because their breasts aren’t the right shape, or too small?

Can’t we debate this without calling each other names?

Names?

I think most feminists are also more than happy to go to bat against unecessary plastic surgery to fit some pornified ideal, urban. I certainly am.

And where was this idealism when our daughters and sisters chase after breast augmentation because their breasts aren’t the right shape, or too small?

Eh? Not sure you're going to find much support for cosmetic surgery among radical feminists so the answer to your question is that this idealism was right here, where it has always been.

Hard of thinking?

I guess it doesn’t matter but it makes it easier to think fuck it why bother when you can’t put a considered point of view across without being called ‘hard of thinking’.

That's not calling names though is it?

I do think it's naive at best to think that you can disuade people from a course of action by making it easier. When does that ever happen? It requires you to tie your thinking up in knots frankly. And I don't know why you would do that.

And breast binders are not a least worst option - they are horrible.

I totally disagree wth you too, urbanbeetler.

Breast binding is an awful practice that can cause permanent damage.

Fox & Owl's awful book needs to be put in the bin, and charities need to stop affirming this shit - and yelling at people who tentatively suggest that unquestioning affirmation may not be such a good idea....