MNHQ: I'd like to start a thread about the reality of phalloplasty without it being deleted

[BarrackerBarmer]

MNHQ has already deleted one thread "not in the spirit".

Fair enough.

Please lay out exactly how I can start a thread about phalloplasty, with images (of arms, not of penises).
This is important. Thousands of girls are identifying as boys, and the medical pathway for those girls includes breastbinding, double mastectomies, hysterectomies and phalloplasties.

Guidance from many institutions is unquestioning affirmation.

I want to discuss this. Truthfully.

Tell me how I can do this without MNHQ deleting my thread and I will follow your rules to the letter.

Or tell the thousands of women on this site that we are forbidden from discussing the outcome of SRS for girls entirely.

What are your rules please?

Sandy draws badly's twitter feed led me to the Reddit discussion on phalloplasty and a man (of the born with meat and two veg variety) saying "presumably if the nerve grafts take, the sensation you get will be a bit like having your forearm stroked - ie not at all like penetrative sex feels." It also got me thinking about the claim that you'd still be able to orgasm via indirect stimulation of the now-buried clitoris. I can't help but think that would feel a bit like trying to masturbate through jeans and a thick winter overcoat (still, ideal for the gulag I guess).

Here, this can’t be linked back to a real person and has bits censored. I think it covers the reality of a transitioned body.
I’ve had some feedback that it doesn’t happen to children under 18 because of the tattooing comment. All I can say is that the head of Britain’s largest charity for trans kids had their child fully physically transitioned on their 16th birthday, and they are not alone. Don’t make out that it doesn’t happen because seeing the reality makes you feel uncomfortable.

Naomi Wolf - The Beauty Myth was published in the 1990s against impossible beauty ideals. I would come up with more examples as I have them but I need to go out. The voices against idealised femininity and surgery to achieve it were certainly there.

I do get what you are saying. I don’t know what the long term affects of breast binding actually is because there are so many conflicting reports. Same as with medical transitioning - there is so little research really telling us if it solves the issue for those who transition or if it creates huge new issues. There are so few reliable resources. We have to deal with where we are now and I am arguing that we have gone down a road too far already to reverse. Minimising long term impact feels like the best thing now.

But I accept I may be wrong. This goes round and round in my head - I can’t accept that we shouldn’t listen at all to the people who have and are going through it - but I also see the damage and the trauma and it horrifies me. And I hate how many battles we fought for women are now becoming retrospective defeats.

I am bowing out of this debate now. The splinters on my bum from sitting on the fence are too much to take.

Maybe I am hard of thinking.

photos of post op arms are all over twitter just now. Grim - beyond grim but sobering. Still, maybe a link to a photo? They are very graphic.

Just checked her Twitter and saw the 'Stonewall Hates Lesbians - Get Over It' T-shirt

Yes Sandy - plus certain influential trans-activists are campaigning for kids to be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies - and to be able to remove any control of the parents in any of these decisions.

We have to deal with where we are now and I am arguing that we have gone down a road too far already to reverse. Minimising long term impact feels like the best thing now.

OK look sorry - I take back 'hard of thinking' you clearly are thinking. Have a

But I don't agree that we can't reverse it. And I don't agree that we should minimise damage. I am very angry about this and about the prison thing and we must keep fighting it. Not least because WE ARE WINNING. So I don't want anyone to give up, or to compromise, or to say 'maybe this bit, you can have that' Because they won't stop until we have nothing left.

And, I say again, WE ARE WINNING.

Free text - Beauty and misogyny - Harmful cultural practices in the West by Sheila Jeffreys.

whereas a healthy adult woman has to jump hoops to have an elected hysterectomy? But a child can be started on the path to a sex change (when all most probably need is a metal heath expert intervention and a talk about the nonsense of gender stereotypes)?

Here, this can’t be linked back to a real person and has bits censored. I think it covers the reality of a transitioned body.
I’ve had some feedback that it doesn’t happen to children under 18 because of the tattooing comment. All I can say is that the head of Britain’s largest charity for trans kids had their child fully physically transitioned on their 16th birthday, and they are not alone. Don’t make out that it doesn’t happen because seeing the reality makes you feel uncomfortable.

Stupid bloody technology. I post a reply and it reposts the next from my last post.wtaf safari.
now i’ll Have to remember what I wrote again.

Stupid bloody technology. I post a reply and it reposts the next from my last post.wtaf safari.
now i’ll Have to remember what I wrote again.

Oh FFS

I kind if go in the opposite direction urban but i think your post us really interesting and i will think more about it - avoiding medicalisation does sound like a goal. For me that means avoiding any pressure on having surgery as some kind of passport, and on mN and elsewhere this IS happening as we talk about eg Karen White, intact males in female prisons and '80% of trans males keep their penis'. Well, that's a good thing - the ultimate goal imo should be 100%. I would love to live in a society whete there is 0% genital mutilation of any type and 0% self harm. Maybe we should refer to this surgery as medicalised or assisted self harm.

To me that means being even stronger in protecting single sex spaces. I definitely don't want 'get your dick chopped off' or 'have your arm turned into a cock-like item' as some kind of invitation to 'the club'. I would like being in your sexed body not to be seen as a club into which you 'pass' or not. To me that means being absolutely clear that a wish to transition being a mebtal health issue for which surgery is the wrong and unethical treatment. But maybe self id is in fact the path out of the situation we are in where an official government consultation defines 'sex' as something other people define for you at birth instead of something that you are from very early in your gestation. Maybe we do have to step forward through self id to escape this insanity rather than try to hold a line? I hope not but you could ve right.

Urbanbeetler
We are all having to challenge our thinking, our socialisation and our belief in human nature when confronting this toxic ideology. When politicians stand by and watch children being groomed and mutilated in plain sight, it's not surprising that the rest of us struggle to articulate what is happening. I know that week by week, I am becoming more and more militant!

The surgeon Dr. Crane, who is now sued by 8 of his phalloplasty patients (see upthread comment and link by another poster) features in Louis Theroux documentary about transkids, btw. He sure made phalloplasty make look like you could get a good looking package easily (they even talked about function with a patient). If this was something I wanted but was scared of, after seeing that, I might have gone for it. I sure wonder, whether Crane was upfront with patients regarding success rates and risks....

I don't understand why your last thread was deleted.

This needs to be seen.

If people are undergoing surgery they need to know the truth about it.

How is it possible that women and men in their 30s find it difficult to get a vasectomy or their tubes clipped as they might change their minds but people that young can undergo painful procedures with long recovery periods permanent scarring and never ever be able to fully enjoy a normal sexual relationship .

And all the people pushing this pathway for people have not even undergone it themselves.

It's criminal

I remember having a "heated discussion" with my DD about her FtM friend in which I said I thought it was sad that her friend would never feel sexual pleasure if her friend went on to have a surgical transition. The subject had obviously never been part of their conversation, and I think this is because a) they're too young to even have the concept of what they are giving up and b) the female orgasm is irrelevant to the people pushing this agenda. It's unimportant because women are just a collection of holes for penetration.

As an aside, another DC had to have surgery on her lip, when I asked the surgeon what impact this would have on her ability to feel sensation with her lip, he said that he'd never been asked that before, and he'd never considered it before. In DCs case, the surgery was unavoidable, and it was a moot point, but I think it says a lot about the focus on the mechanical rather than the spiritual/emotional impact of surgery.

I am absolutely sick of saying that just because we have the ability to do something, it doesn't follow that we should do it.

As far as I know, statistically speaking, social transition is the most likely marker for physical transition.

I understand the premise of minimising things like names and presentation, normalising it. That's the gender critical position.

The crux is not to agree that it means you are presenting as the opposite anything. You're just being you.

And that Sandy Draws Badly picture, although a fairly accurate representation, does not show the real horror. I agree this needs to be shared widely.

It's the logical conclusion to those stupid books, the gingerbread person spectrum, and picking a fairy or a GI Joe as your internal representation. Ffs.

The pressure to complete surgery isn't coming from GC feminists. A percentage of transitioners will want this because it's possible/their friends egg them on/theyve already committed to the mastectomy so feel there's no going back/they just have that sort of all or nothing personality/they see it as evidence of their extreme commitment and it validates their beliefs.
It may be only 5 or 10% who go the whole way, and none of it is driven by a PULL from the gender critical part of society. It's all from the PUSH of people who already advocate transition as a positive, affirming thing.

It's like they are being pushed, by parties with an agenda, at a closed door, and the people on the other side are agonising over whether to open it for some, or all, or none.

I understand, I think, the rationale behind the poster who suggested removing any inadvertent 'incentive' to surgically transition from the GC side suggested by holding surgery as the bar for accepting a real transition. But surrendering to self ID also means accepting those surgeries too, when they happen.

The incentive is that the door might open, with a declaration, with a certificate, with surgery, with threats.

But in reality, accepting self ID opens the door, shows that it's possible, if you push hard enough. ALL of the PUSH factors remain, and now we've made transition -of any variety- more acceptable to larger numbers, so that 5 or 10% who will do surgery is now going to be a fraction of a much greater population. There will still be more surgeries.

The way to stop this horror is to go back and look at the push factors, and shut them down. Ethics boards need to review these surgeries. Organisations encouraging them need to be sanctioned.

And society can say, actually, no, not even surgery will make a difference. You can't change sex, we're sorry if we led you to believe otherwise, and we're going to be more honest from now on. So whether you have surgery or not, society will not validate you as the opposite sex any more. The door is closed and surgery won't get you through it.

SandyDrawsBadly - Sandy, I think that cartoon is the most impactful you've ever drawn. It made me cry. Thank you for drawing it.

I’m on IPad AND in denial about my reading glasses prescription needs.
Please could someone transcribe Sandy’s text for me.