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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

British Gymnastics also have drunk the koolaid

172 replies

GColdtimer · 12/09/2018 12:07

So my dds gym coach sent me the guidelines, knowing my stance on these matters and asked what I thought (well he said he probably knew what I thought but wanted to share).

Here you go:

On Definitions:

1.3 -Children sometimes know from a very young age and change their gender role sometimes before starting or during their early years in school. Others may only become fully aware when puberty starts. In some cases, such feelings may be repressed for many years.

1.6-1.7 refer to the EA, protected characteristics and the WEC

The rest of section one refers to the guidelines set down by the IOC etc which appear to be all about testosterone rather than muscle mass, lung capacity, strength etc.

1.15 says that pre16 boys (who identify as girls, purely because they feel like a girl) can compete alongside girls. Funny how it doesn’t mention trans boys. Is this because, perhaps, a 15 year old female bodied trans boy probably wouldn't want to compete alongside the boys because they will likely loose.

5.6 explains what being trans is about all over again "Signs can appear at a very young age e.g. a child refusing to wear typical clothes of their gender or taking part in non- typical games."

7.11 - Changing Rooms: Competition organisers must ensure that all participants are able to have access to changing rooms and toilets, according to the gender in which they present. It is not acceptable to restrict them to using disabled toilets or other unisex facilities unless this is specifically requested by the participant.

So boys can get changed with the girls because they say they are girls. And girls cannot complain or express their unease at this situation. What about protecting girls safety, dignity, privacy.

In their notes: "If an individual remains unhappy about a trans person using facilities appropriate to their gender identity, then they should make alternative arrangements” So basically if a teenage girl doesn’t want to get changed with a boy, it tough. She should go elsewhere.

And then this gem:

Residential events: As far as possible, trans people should be able to sleep in a room appropriate to their gender identity. However, some trans people may not feel comfortable doing this and in such cases alternative sleeping arrangements should be considered for privacy reasons. It is important to consider the options in advance and find out if they would prefer a separate room if this option would be available. Again, what about the girls privacy.

Who wrote these guidelines? Oh look, Stonewall and Mermaids advised.

I need to go for a run to calm down.

OP posts:
TimeLady · 16/09/2018 09:15

Not just paedophiles, there are the fetishists too, who also seem to be have been prised out of the woodwork these last few weeks. I agree it's definitely an attempt to get it all mainstream - lets face it, hard-core porn is much more accepted than it was a couple of decades ago, so I can see why they might be encouraged to push the boundaries further.

Teenage girls are being pressured to look and behave like porn stars, so it's no wonder ever-increasing numbers of them want to opt out.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 16/09/2018 09:40

It's the very visual thing isn't it. It's very put in the open - normalise something and it will become the norm?

In ye olden days, transsexuals would just get on with it and try to fly under the radar as much as possible.

Transvestites would be a different matter - maybe more of a 'behind closed doors' or on a night out at a gay club. If they dressed like Carmen Miranda and had 'sassy attitide' you could expect an acid tongue too.

Why are transvestites holding the power here (yes it's the old fashioned word but it describes those who have not had any medical intervention, not have any intention of doing so yet still want to claim 'woman' - again I use mtf as this seems the be the group that is wielding the most power in this debate).

The new breed are in your face and almost trying to dare people to notice them or make any comment that they could attack. 'Have a nice day!' 'WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT!! TRANSPHOBE! HATE CRIME!'. A bit like gobby teens on the bus showing off to their little friends. Why - thrills? Part of their jollies?

There is also a worrying normalisation of kinds and fetishes which may or may not be as a result of so much readily available porn on the Internet pushing boundaries. Grown men in nappies dressed as babies for the fun of it? Adults dressed as dogs or my little ponies? A grown man in nappy with a beer belly overhang because he gets a thrill? Back in the day anyone discovered doing this would be ashamed - now they get an internet fan club of fawning ninnies telling them how beautiful and brave they are.

I saw a photo yesterday that really turned my stomach - a post on Twitter popped up that showed a ftm's arm post op (I won't go into details because it still makes me feel queasy). It was brutal and explicit, and I can't see how this person could ever have a normal look arm. A very visible, massive scar - hard to hide. It wasn't beautiful or brave - brutal and sad. Please don't Google as it is horrible.

GColdtimer · 16/09/2018 09:53

Thumbwitch that is so disturbing. Thank you.

OP posts:
GColdtimer · 19/09/2018 13:49

Did anyone who wrote have a reply?

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 19/09/2018 15:01

About to write an email as I'm fuming but I don't know where to start!

Can anyone who has sent something copy and paste so I can echo your thoughts? Lazy I know but I almost can't put into words how angry I am having read this thread. I did gymnastics as a young child through until early teens and the thought of having had a male bodied child in the changing girls changing room would have been a really scary experience - not because they were scary themselves but because as your body is changing and you're exposed it would be something that I think would have stayed with me and put me off continuing with the sport.

GColdtimer · 19/09/2018 18:53

My email.

Dear Richard

I recently saw the guidelines for the inclusion of transgender people published on your website and I read through the document with increasing horror. I tried to call Lucy but although she wrote the document she said it is nothing to do with her so it seems you are the person who has to answer to it.

As a parent of an 8 year old female gymnast I have serious concerns about the guidelines, including the utter disregard for any safeguarding and the contradiction of your own policies; the gender stereotypes you so readily embrace; the failure to consider girls and women’s dignity, safety and privacy, not to mention their right to fair competition; and the organisations you consulted with (and the ones you didn’t consult with) to put the guidelines together.

You have taken advice from a small but vocal group of Trans Rights activists who have shown that they have no consideration of the rights of women and girls. Your use of some phrases shows that you have copied verbatim from these pressure groups. At no point have you consulted with parents, coaches or women’s groups about these guidelines. fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional/. Stonewall’s advisor is a trans person call Aimee Challenor. Aimee’s father has just gone to prison for raping and torturing a 10 year old girl whilst dressed as a female baby. Aimee knew about his crimes and yet still employed him as an advisor and a representative when she was working for the Green Party. So, Aimee would have been advising on the British Gymnastics policy, whilst their cross dressing (trans in Stonewall speak and Transwomen = women according to them) peodophile father was working with her and also working as a gymnastics coach. All that important safeguarding and risk assessment you do and you take advice from vocal, hateful activists with links to paedophiles. Its naive at best, deeply damaging and dangerous at worse.

Whilst your safeguarding policies require girls and boys to be separated in changing rooms and in sleeping and washing facilities (if they are on a trip) your trans policy totally overrides your sensible safeguarding measures which are designed to keep children safe and say that boys can share with girls if they "identify as a girl". You go on to say that because of privacy reasons (not the privacy of girls who do not want to get changed in front of boys) you will not be able to tell parents that their daughter will be sharing with a boy, and what’s more, if a girl does not like it they can go elsewhere. “If an individual remains unhappy about a trans person using facilities appropriate to their gender identity, then they should make alternative arrangements”. I presume this also applies to any adults involved on a trip (some men use the self ID law to distance themselves from the abusive past).

Your definition of “trans” is outdated, sexist and regressive - you say they may "refuse to wear typical clothes of their gender or taking part in non-typical games.” So if my daughter wears her hair short and likes football and playing with guns she is actually a boy. Boys who like to wear dresses and play with dolls are actually boys. Right. Glad the last 50 years fighting for sexual equality have worked. This actually beggars believe.

As far as competition goes, you are happy to disadvantage girls even further by allowing teenage boys to compete against them. How is this fair? Its already happening in other sports and once you squeeze girls out of sports at grass routes level there will be no leading sports women because they will all essentially men (you cannot change your biological sex, no matter how you identify). In the US recently at a college event, designed to give the winners a scholarship, 5 out of the 6 winners of sprinting races were biological men. They simply said they identified as women.

Could you tell me why you want to override the privacy, dignity and safety of children in this way and disadvantage girls from sport?

You are the body that represents Gymnastics, you need to be way more accountable for the guidelines you publish. Trans Rights Activists are twisting the current legislation and putting pressure on groups such as BG saying that if you don’t agree with their advice you are hateful and bigoted and transphobic. You have fallen for it.

I support anyone’s right to live how they wish to live free from abuse and discrimination. But that cannot come at the expense of the dignity, safety and privacy of girls.

Following the abject failure of the prison service to protect women from rapists posing as women there is enormous media interest in this. I look forward to your response.

OP posts:
GColdtimer · 19/09/2018 18:54

But waffly in the middle but should be enough to use! Some of it is shamelessly copied from other posters.

OP posts:
Lancelottie · 19/09/2018 18:58

Excellent rant. Just a note though that three of those six winners were meant to be boys, as it was the results of the boys' and girls' races, so it's two 'girls' out of three being male (Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood) rather than five out of six.

OhHolyJesus · 19/09/2018 20:02

Lovely OP, thanks for sharing. Will use it and also email him. Something has to be done.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 22/09/2018 19:03

Big happy sigh.

Warching TV when some kids doing gymnastics came on.

Explained to a visiting dad (of daughters) the latest from BG. He hadn't heard but had previously been of the "oh let and live, what can self ID hurt..." brigade.

Jaw hit floor. 'But I'm sure they won't do this in the dance and gym classes that your daughters do...maybe'

My work is done for today... 💃💃💃💃💃

GColdtimer · 27/09/2018 12:31

This is my email back. Am in the US with work so no time to deconstruct. Anyone else is welcome to!

Dear Ms Twofalls,

Thank you for your emails raising your concerns about the following documents:

a) British Gymnastics Policy for the Participation of Trans People in Gymnastics Competition; and

b) British Gymnastics Guidance on the Inclusion of Trans People in all Forms of Gymnastics Activity.

While the policy is mandatory and applies to all domestic gymnastics competitions, the guidance aimed at clubs is not mandatory as each club operates differently and the circumstances for each trans participant are different therefore individualised solutions may be needed.

Before responding to your specific concerns, it is important to acknowledge the complexities of this subject and the fact that there are some individuals and groups who are strongly against the principle of defining children as trans. We do not believe it is our role to be judgemental about the beliefs of others or approach taken by parents supporting a child who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. While we respect your right to express your views, we do not feel it is appropriate for us to enter into debate about matters such as the difference between sex and gender. Our role is to provide policy and guidance to our clubs that promotes inclusion, equality and diversity and to ensure compliance with applicable law.

Given the above, we believe the relevant points to which we will respond to individually are as follows:

  1. The organisations who you believed advised British Gymnastics are not reputable because of the actions of individuals associated with them.
  2. You think the definition of trans used in the policy is outdated, sexist and regressive.
  3. You believe other sports are withdrawing similar guidance because it is dangerous and discriminatory.
  4. You feel the rules for competition disadvantage girls and girls will be squeezed out of competitive sport.
  5. You think the guidance for clubs contradicts the safeguarding policy and compromises the safety, dignity and privacy of children and should be withdrawn.

The organisations who you believed advised British Gymnastics are not reputable because of the actions of individuals associated with them.

While our Equality Steering Group did receive some initial training and resources from Gendered Intelligence, they were not directly involved in developing our policy and guidance. We have not worked with Mermaids or Stonewall and have no connection with any of the individuals you have named in your correspondence.
The guidance we provided for our clubs was well-researched to ensure it was relevant to clubs and that it complies with all applicable laws. We reviewed information from a diverse range of external organisations, including Equality & Human Rights Commission, ACAS, Citizen’s Advice, other sports organisations and NHS in addition to material from organisations that support trans people such as Stonewall and Gires. We also consulted with clubs, parents and participants.

You think the definition of trans used in the policy is outdated, sexist and regressive.

You appear to state the above on the basis that the definition makes reference to signs that can appear at a very young age such as ‘a child refusing to wear typical clothes of their gender or taking part in non-typical games’. This reference is actually from the definition we used in the policy for gender dysphoria and not the definition we used for ‘trans’. The former is based on the current medical description of the condition. Further information can be found on the NHS website www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/

You believe other sports are withdrawing similar guidance because it is dangerous and discriminatory.

The Equality Standard for Sport is a framework that was developed by UK Sport, Sport England and the 3 other Home Country Sports Councils who together make up the Sport Councils Equality Group (SCEG). All funded sports are required to work towards the Standards to widen access and reduce inequalities experienced by under-represented individuals and groups including trans people.
We are aware of many other sports governing bodies that have similar guidance in place including the Football Association who state in their guide to including trans people in football published in 2016 that ‘Trans people should have access to the toilets, showers and changing rooms of their self-identified gender ‘. (p15). Many other sports have already introduced similar guidance and we are aware that other major sports will be publishing guidance later this year. We are unaware of the reason why Swim England’s guidance for facility operators is under review.

You feel the rules for competition disadvantage girls and girls will be squeezed out of competitive sport.

The Equality Act 2010 extended the specific individuals and groups who are protected from discrimination to include gender reassignment and includes a specific but limited exemption relating to sports competitions that allows for participation by ‘transsexual’ participants to be restricted where it is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition. The SCEG developed specific guidance to assist National Governing Bodies (NGBs) to apply this exemption appropriately with particularly reference to children.

Our policy, like those of other NGBs, has been informed by the SCEG and the International Olympic Committee (IOC) guidance and permits anyone who has transitioned from female to male to compete in the male category without restriction. Male to female trans participant are only able to compete without restriction if they are under 12. After this point, medical evidence is required and once the participant is over 16, they must demonstrate that their testosterone levels are within the normal female range for at least 12 months prior to competition.

We believe that these guidance documents provide a fair framework to develop sport-specific policy and do not agree that the inclusion of trans children puts girls at a disadvantage or will squeeze them out of competition, particularly in a sport where women and girls represent over 70% of our participants.

Given the above requirements, it is highly unlikely that any males would go to these lengths simply to compete in a women’s event. It is far from simple for a boy over the age of 12 to enter an event simply by stating they identify as female. The scenario you outlined about a US college event would not apply, as medical evidence would be required before participation could be approved.
While it is apparent from the enquires we receive from clubs and parents that there are trans individuals who will now be able participate in competitive gymnastics in a way that was previously inaccessible, trans participants remain a very tiny proportion of our membership and an even smaller proportion of our competitive members.

You think the guidance for clubs contradicts the safeguarding policy and compromises the safety, dignity and privacy of children and should be withdrawn.

While it is essential that anyone who is providing gymnastics activities for children has robust safeguarding arrangements in place, we do not consider our trans guidance compromises the welfare of children in our sport and believe it complies with legal requirements.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission Guidance - What Equality Law Means for your Business (2014) is clear that “transsexual’ people should be treated as belonging to the gender in which they present (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with) unless a service provider can objectively justify treating them differently”. The guidance specifically states that “anyone who identifies themselves as a woman - whether that is their legal status or not - can already use separate-sex facilities such as changing rooms, toilets or single-sex gyms”.

This does not mean that anyone who says that are female (or male) can simply use the separate sex facilities of that gender. Although a trans person does not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to be protected by the Equality Act 2010 but they do need to have completed or be intending to complete the process of gender reassignment.

Our guidance advises clubs to have a discussion with any existing participant who plans to transition where the topic of access to toilets and changing facilities should be considered. In many cases, the trans participant wishes to use alternative facilities but if this was not their wishes or this option was not available, clubs would need an objectively justifiable reason to restrict a participant from accessing the facilities appropriate to their gender identity. In most cases, the club would contact British Gymnastics for advice as they usually do not feel confident to take these decisions in isolation. We help clubs to look at the specific individual circumstances, including the nature of participation, the availability of facilities such as changing areas and any specific risks in relation to how these facilities are used.

We have provided support to clubs and/or parents in respect of children who have already transitioned where there is no visual indication of the child’s trans status. In these cases, the individual would not wish to do anything that could identify them to as trans. While you are correct that the right to legally change the sex on your birth certificate is only open to people over the age of 18, the Equality Act 2010 protects trans children from discrimination and it is likely that the disclosure of any information by the club without the explicit agreement of the trans person would be a breach of data protection law.
Where the person who intends to transition is an existing participant, some discussion and information sharing with other participants and potentially parents would of course be appropriate as they will have known the individual in the opposite gender.

When preparing our guidance, we considered the context of the specific services that most clubs provide and whether there are likely to be circumstances where it would be objectively justifiable to require trans participants to use different facilities. We learned from our clubs that except for younger (often pre-school) children who may be changed by a parent/carer, gymnasts do not usually remove all their clothes in changing facilities. Gymnasts tend to arrive already in their leotards and use these spaces to leave their belongings and any over garments such as t-shirts and jogging bottoms/leggings in the changing area during training and simply put their clothes back on top of their leotard at the end of the session. If a gymnast did need to get change, they will use the toilet or changing cubicles. Consequently, there does not seem to be any substantive evidence that allowing a trans girl to access the female facilities would compromises the safety, dignity and privacy of girls, although ultimately this is a matter for clubs to consider based on the applicable circumstances.

It is important to read the entire guidance document as it identifies the need to respond to each situation on a case by case basis and highlights that in some circumstances a risk assessment should be conducted,
particularly paying due regard to any safeguarding issues that could arise.

As you are aware, we require all gymnastics clubs to have effective safeguarding arrangements and to undertake risk assessments. The safeguarding policy requires clubs to provide separate changing facilities for males and females and that clubs must ensure that adults do not use these facilities at the same time as children. The trans guidance confirms that anyone with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment should be permitted to access the facilities based on their gender identity and includes the following statements which highlight the importance of ensuring children are safeguarded:

When making any arrangements for the use of changing facilities, it is important to consider the wider safeguarding arrangements relating to children and ensure that adults are not getting changed at the same time in the same space as children.

Where appropriate a risk assessment should be conducted particularly paying due regard to any safeguarding issues that could arise.

The safeguarding documents are currently under review and in response to feedback that we have received, we will ensure that specific reference is made to trans participants and clear indication as to when a risk assessment would be appropriate.

While we understand your concern, we believe it is highly unlikely that a participant who is not trans would claim that they identify as female simply to access the girl’s changing facilities or toilets. We are confident that clubs would be able to tell the difference between someone who is genuine in their intention to live permanently in the opposite gender and someone who has an ulterior motive for accessing these facilities and would identify the later scenario correctly as a child protection issue that should be reported without delay. We do not believe that our trans inclusion guidance compromises the welfare of girls. This seems to be the position of the NSPCC who recently indicated that they do not consider there to be any specific child protection concerns in relation to trans-inclusive policies whilst stressing the importance of robust safeguarding policies and risk assessment.

While we have no intention to withdraw the guidance, which has been received positively by many clubs and individuals, we are committed to continually review and improve its content and develop case studies and other resources to support understanding and awareness.

We believe that the guidance is vital in supporting people who identify as trans who can face significant barriers when seeking to participate in sport and thank you for raising your concerns.

Kind Regards.

Nicola Milton
Customer Resolution Officer
cid:[email protected]
T. 0345 1297129 Ext. 2637
W. british-gymnastics.org

Ford Hall, Lilleshall National Sports Centre, Newport, Shropshire, TF10 9NB
Registered in England. Company Limited by Guarantee Registration No. 1630001 VAT No. 100166672

OP posts:
KittyPerry77 · 27/09/2018 12:39

Very well written reply but boils down to "Piss off".

GColdtimer · 28/09/2018 15:29

Yep. Absolutely!

OP posts:
BlackeyedSusan · 28/09/2018 23:21

shit, they are going to wait til (god forbid) something happens.

in the mean time girls will be embarressed, upset, intimidated, scared... and there is not a fucking thing they can do about it.

GColdtimer · 29/09/2018 09:50

Yep. It's awful isn't it.

OP posts:
runner6 · 07/03/2019 14:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 07/03/2019 14:43

Bump

Datun · 07/03/2019 14:44

Sanchez, in case you're not allowed to solicit views in this way. How else can people get hold of you? Do you mind making your email public?

MillytantForceit · 07/03/2019 14:57

Gymnastics has quite a history of child abuse. Most recently we have Larry Nassar, but we must also recall Olga Korbut, raped by her coach aged 17, and Nadia Comeneci provided to the dictator's son Nicu Caeucesu as a plaything aged just 15.

If any sport needs to watch itself, it is gymnastics.

Manderleyagain · 07/03/2019 15:21

Op - going back to the letter from British gymnastics - it quotes the ehrc guidence to the equalities act, and that helps them justify their policy on changing rooms. The guidence was changed under the radar towards the end of the consultation on the gra, so almost certainly after the letter was written. It would be worth comparing to see if that bit which has been changed. I think (but am not sure, might be wrong) it might now only refer to changing rooms wrt grc holders.

HumphreyCobblers · 07/03/2019 16:37

We are confident that clubs would be able to tell the difference between someone who is genuine in their intention to live permanently in the opposite gender and someone who has an ulterior motive for accessing these facilities and would identify the later scenario correctly as a child protection issue that should be reported without delay.

BUT HOW ARE THEY GOING TO DO THIS?

I would like to know about the process and questions that will be asked in order to enable lay people to 'tell the difference'.

In the real world, people will just roll over and accept that people are who they say they are, that is what is happening already.

MillytantForceit · 07/03/2019 16:39

In ALL matters of discrimination, the offence is ALWAYS measured not by the stated intentions of the perpetrator but the effect on the victim.

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