British Gymnastics also have drunk the koolaid

[GColdtimer]

So my dds gym coach sent me the guidelines, knowing my stance on these matters and asked what I thought (well he said he probably knew what I thought but wanted to share).

Here you go:

On Definitions:

1.3 -Children sometimes know from a very young age and change their gender role sometimes before starting or during their early years in school. Others may only become fully aware when puberty starts. In some cases, such feelings may be repressed for many years.

1.6-1.7 refer to the EA, protected characteristics and the WEC

The rest of section one refers to the guidelines set down by the IOC etc which appear to be all about testosterone rather than muscle mass, lung capacity, strength etc.

1.15 says that pre16 boys (who identify as girls, purely because they feel like a girl) can compete alongside girls. Funny how it doesn’t mention trans boys. Is this because, perhaps, a 15 year old female bodied trans boy probably wouldn't want to compete alongside the boys because they will likely loose.

5.6 explains what being trans is about all over again "Signs can appear at a very young age e.g. a child refusing to wear typical clothes of their gender or taking part in non- typical games."

7.11 - Changing Rooms: Competition organisers must ensure that all participants are able to have access to changing rooms and toilets, according to the gender in which they present. It is not acceptable to restrict them to using disabled toilets or other unisex facilities unless this is specifically requested by the participant.

So boys can get changed with the girls because they say they are girls. And girls cannot complain or express their unease at this situation. What about protecting girls safety, dignity, privacy.

In their notes: "If an individual remains unhappy about a trans person using facilities appropriate to their gender identity, then they should make alternative arrangements” So basically if a teenage girl doesn’t want to get changed with a boy, it tough. She should go elsewhere.

And then this gem:

Residential events: As far as possible, trans people should be able to sleep in a room appropriate to their gender identity. However, some trans people may not feel comfortable doing this and in such cases alternative sleeping arrangements should be considered for privacy reasons. It is important to consider the options in advance and find out if they would prefer a separate room if this option would be available. Again, what about the girls privacy.

Who wrote these guidelines? Oh look, Stonewall and Mermaids advised.

I need to go for a run to calm down.

I missed that in my rage nothing

I'd be tempted to out the dog in a leotard and bring him along. But Fido is a girl. She says she is.

"Any BG member, employee or volunteer who identifies an individual as trans without their
permission may be committing a criminal offence and will be dealt with in accordance with the
relevant disciplinary procedure."

Misgendering?

"Assigned sex - The sex (male or female) assigned at birth"

Mammallian biological sex (male / female / dick / cunt / babies) is not a real tangible thing.

& so on and so forth

Strong advice about lots of secrecy over everything. That is important.

Have given up on reading the rest! Not sure if this is the current version or a previous one.

Just on school run/after school activities but will be back later. I have messaged FPFW and they have acknowledged. They are going to take a look.

nothing the policy I linked to in the OP was circulated to all club secretaries on he 8th August this year.

Twofalls, what crap.

Sports clubs and grassroots sports survive on a wing and a prayer and through the contributions of a small number of very dedicated individuals. Resources, both time and money, are desperately tight. They need to be focused on delivering good quality training to interested kids. Clubs may be asked to give some priority to including disabled athletes or deliver some social outreach. (The club I was involved with, did that anyway. Because nice normal people dont turn away disabled kids or those whose parents really could not pay.) But to require volunteers to give their time to PROMOTE transgender inclusion is bonkers. In the same way as they would have no reason to be required to PROMOTE the inclusion of any minority group. Legislation does not allow kids to be discriminated against on sex, race or other grounds, and that is enough. Children in your care must be protected. So the boy who believes he is a girl is welcomed into the club. But you dont risk the safety of others, or make adaptations to the whole sport in order to accomodate them.

I am trying to visualise a girl identifying as a boy doing male strength based gymnastics with a binder under the unitard which no one is noticing and getting in the necessary breathing. It does not sound very practical or sensible, or based on real life.

Does this really happen, or are all these guidelines based on the imagination of the writer?

I’m minded to think - even though women’s senior competitions have a minimum age and BMI (Simone Biles would be about a 20, Beth Tweddle , Sanne Wevvers about a 21, even the Chinese are age compliant) , and the young women larger , more powerful and certainly better tumblers than ever before - that allowing males to compete a single women may bring back situations such as what brought about Yelena Mukhina’s terrible accident .
And how many deaths will it take this time - from falls , and eating disorders - before anyone can cares . Look how long it took even after Mukhina .

Given the liability problem I would not feel able to volunteer if I had doubts about child protection policies and how they were implemented.

I absolutely would not volunteer for any organisation with insufficient safeguarding policies. For the children's sake and, as you say, also for my own sake.

I can see some nasty injuries happening on the asymmetric bars....

I would always be fearful of getting caught up in A Situation with an organisation that did not have proper safeguarding procedures, training and back up. Swimming and Gymnastics and Scouts have suffered badly from problems with people getting very involved, and then turning out to have an unsavoury sideline that they are fitting into their volunteering, and it doesn't come to light until there is quite a trail of devastation, and still more to get the necessary evidence to bring anyone to Court. As a result, they need very watertight preventative safeguarding procedures which they have put into place over the intervening years.

I have always felt happy helping out places like playgroup and Guides (which does not have the Scout's history) where they know what they are doing. Oh er ........... - just wait a minute

MisDescamisados, there isn’t a minimum BMI for elite gymnastics but you are right there is an minimum age of 16 for women.

Male elite gymnasts are much older than even the oldest female gymnasts - they are usually early to mid twenties at their peak, partly because they need longer to develop their strength. Kohei Uchimura and Simone Biles were 27 and 19 respectively at Rio.

There is no way that women could compete with even a mid field male gymnast for tumbling/vault difficulty. They push female gymnasts so hard now that many compete injured - if they had to keep up with men they’d be crippled.

A minimum BMI would further hurt women over men, given that we have a higher fat : muscle ratio

Putting this here as I've seen an approximate, "it's not relevant because testosterone levels will mean they don't meet the IOC standard of 10nmol/L" claim on the other thread. (British Gymnastics don't seem to be applying even IOC in this.

--

A poster wrote: So really they are talking about pre-pubescent males who identify as female. Anyone into puberty would have higher levels of testosterone and not be able to compete in the female category.

I wrote as follows:

As PP say, BG is not necessarily abiding by IOC guidelines.

Nonetheless, it's plausible that they might be taking puberty-blockers (authorised or unauthorised). Even at 10nmol/L it's substantially higher than for girls in the comparable age group. The values below are given in different units (ng/dL) but there's a conversion tool: unitslab.com/node/136

As a general guide 10nmol/L is 288.42ng/dL. The average adult female testosterone range is 15-70ng/dL. Average adult male testosterone is 270-1,070ng/dL.

hormonesj15.imascientist.org.uk/2015/06/26/do-boys-and-girls-have-the-same-level-of-testosterone-till-puberty/

See www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age

Over on the AIBU thread on this, we've already had the 'why are you making a fuss about boys changing/sharing with girls@ and 'it's the same as if you objected to black people/gay people/disabled people'.

Buckle up, everyone...

Yep Vicky. It could be a rocky rude!

Seriously though these issues need to be discussed by the wider board so I don't mind how ridiculous posters are. They end up doing our jobs for us.

I'm a long time lurker on this board, and everyone is much more articulate than me, but wanted to say that I am fucking angry right now! No-one cares about girls!

Wish I was still a BG member/coach just to be in a position to say something!

This is so infuriating. My impression of women's gymnastics is that women are already pushed to the absolute limits and come away from the sport, at worst, with lots of injuries.

And how can they be saying that liking activities associated with the opposute sex makes you trans? That is criminal.

The scandal in American gymnastics of so many girls being abused means these guidelines shouldn't have been written. I'm so angry girls are cared about so little

Exactly gendercritter. It should have resulted in safeguarding being strengthened, not systematically being broken down!

Not sure if it’s been mentioned upthread as I had to speed read the last page but it was reported that David Challenor was involved in local gymnastics. Would be interesting to know exactly who the advisors to BG were.

I know nowt about gymnastics, but the following leapt out at me:

Changing Rooms: Competition organisers must ensure that all participants are able to have access to changing rooms and toilets, according to the gender in which they present. It is not acceptable to restrict them to using disabled toilets or other unisex facilities unless this is specifically requested by the participant.

However, some trans people may not feel comfortable doing this and in such cases alternative sleeping arrangements should be considered

and

If an individual remains unhappy about a trans person using facilities appropriate to their gender identity, then they should make alternative arrangements

Translation: we'll bend over backwards to accommodate the trans-identified males and if the actual girls don't like sharing their space with dicks, well, who fucking cares? It makes me furious.

bzzbeebzz wrote: David Challenor was involved in local gymnastics. Would be interesting to know exactly who the advisors to BG were.

That would be interesting to know, indeed! However, as per Kathleen Stock, I strongly suspect that no appropriate, transparent, fully accountable consultation took place.

Stop telling us you've reached your position via 'consultation' when in fact you mean Gender Studies academics or trans activists, both of whom assume (ludicrously) there's no such thing as biological sex and so no such thing as sex-based oppression. You know that's nonsense.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3353260-Kathleen-Stock-womens-organisations-have-decentred-biological-females

But it's more than girls feeling uncomfortable. It's actively teaching girls not to speak up if they feel uncomfortable.

Feel uncomfortable about a boy in the changing room, don't say anything you might hurt his feelings and you shouldn't feel uncomfortable anyway.

When the coach follows you into the changing room for a quick chat after a session, you don't need to say anything or feel uncomfortable.

When that coach starts supporting your back flip with your hand under your bum, you don't need to say anything, even if you feel uncomfortable.

And ignore your instincts when the same coach offers you a lift after driving past you walking to practise.

And if that coach assaults you... Well, just don't say anything!