British Gymnastics also have drunk the koolaid

[GColdtimer]

So my dds gym coach sent me the guidelines, knowing my stance on these matters and asked what I thought (well he said he probably knew what I thought but wanted to share).

Here you go:

On Definitions:

1.3 -Children sometimes know from a very young age and change their gender role sometimes before starting or during their early years in school. Others may only become fully aware when puberty starts. In some cases, such feelings may be repressed for many years.

1.6-1.7 refer to the EA, protected characteristics and the WEC

The rest of section one refers to the guidelines set down by the IOC etc which appear to be all about testosterone rather than muscle mass, lung capacity, strength etc.

1.15 says that pre16 boys (who identify as girls, purely because they feel like a girl) can compete alongside girls. Funny how it doesn’t mention trans boys. Is this because, perhaps, a 15 year old female bodied trans boy probably wouldn't want to compete alongside the boys because they will likely loose.

5.6 explains what being trans is about all over again "Signs can appear at a very young age e.g. a child refusing to wear typical clothes of their gender or taking part in non- typical games."

7.11 - Changing Rooms: Competition organisers must ensure that all participants are able to have access to changing rooms and toilets, according to the gender in which they present. It is not acceptable to restrict them to using disabled toilets or other unisex facilities unless this is specifically requested by the participant.

So boys can get changed with the girls because they say they are girls. And girls cannot complain or express their unease at this situation. What about protecting girls safety, dignity, privacy.

In their notes: "If an individual remains unhappy about a trans person using facilities appropriate to their gender identity, then they should make alternative arrangements” So basically if a teenage girl doesn’t want to get changed with a boy, it tough. She should go elsewhere.

And then this gem:

Residential events: As far as possible, trans people should be able to sleep in a room appropriate to their gender identity. However, some trans people may not feel comfortable doing this and in such cases alternative sleeping arrangements should be considered for privacy reasons. It is important to consider the options in advance and find out if they would prefer a separate room if this option would be available. Again, what about the girls privacy.

Who wrote these guidelines? Oh look, Stonewall and Mermaids advised.

I need to go for a run to calm down.

I'm too dumbfounded to write much!
genuinely shaken
have 10yr old daughter who loves (and is good at) gymnastics; it's her "thing".
the changing rooms scenario leaves me cold and goodbye level playingfield
would really appreciate if this was put on AIBU- feel that the gender threads need to be aired more generally sometimes
thanks so much for highlighting this twofalls

That's absolutely shocking and crazy. It's silly to dismiss it by saying boys don't typically have the flexibility. One of mine, a boy, does ballet and gymnastics, he's very very early in these sports (and obviously can't do both if he choses to progress) but he has a flexibility that both sports find very exciting as both don't typically have the degree of flexibility he has. Which is actually why he is doing it, he always wanted to himself but equally his flexibility lends itself well to these sort of activities and in addition in helps build up his ore strength which he lacks.

In addition, according to the gymnastics association my son would be highlighted as a potential trans girl just because the activities he has chosen are traditionally female oriented. How stupid is that. He is only 6 but this far seems extremely comfortable with his sex. Just because he choses to participate in activities that are majority female. Crazy!

This is so dangerous and another example of how trans organisations are embedding gender stereotypes.
Boys can do gymnastics. In fact, if my son’s nursery is anything to go by they can also like to dress up as a fairly and brush dolly hair. It, does. Not. Make. Them. A. Girl.

I accept there are a tiny minority of children who feel the wrong gender of which an even tinier minority may benefit from non psychological treatment. However boys wearing a dress or playing with dolls is actually really normal behaviour. As is girls climbing trees. It’s only abnormal if you haven’t spent much time with young children recently. Trans ideology is setting schools and sports clubs back by 40 years.

DD was involved in a sport with a similar risk profile and I was on her Club's Committee and pushed hard for compliance with an equivalent to Sport England's Club Mark, despite it being a huge adminstrative load for a volunteer run organisation. The person in the sports body explained that going through the hoops was important, to protect volunteers from potential claims, either under equalities (clear criteria for squad selection etc) legislaton, child protection (enhanced DBS every three years for coaching staff, training and policies for volunteers who accompanied athletes etc) and so on. The sports co-ordinator at the local Council said much the same thing, and he and the schools we used needed confirmation we had ticked the boxes., presumably for the same reason. Even then we had one lawyer dad threaten to sue the club for "emotional damage" to his child, though we were confident that as we had done things by the book, he would have been on a hiding to nothing. And there were a couple of early catches where the paperwork needed was not produced.

I never did get an answer to my question about the extent Committee volunteers could be personally liable if things did go wrong. Which is why gaining ClubMark, and having our processes checked externally, was so important.

Given the liability problem I would not feel able to volunteer if I had doubts about child protection policies and how they were implemented. And I am sure that parents of relatively young girls (DD often spent weekends away competing from about the age of 12) would think twice if they knew that their DC were having to share with biological male teens.

This is dangerous

This is a safeguarding issue

This shows that the feelings and dignity of girls don't matter

This shows the inherent misogyny in gymnastics

MsBee -

that's kind of my point
the boys will not be so good at the bendy stuff and the girls will not be so good at the upper body stuff

however girls are not as good as boys at say 100m sprint or high jump

it's the same

so the boys rythmic gymnatics compeitition will not be "as good" as the girls, but, they are competing against each other so you still get the best in the boys group

it doesn't seem right to me that boys can't compete on some things and girls on others. certainly they should not be competing agianst each other though

Someone should explain gender to them very s-l-o-w-l-y using small words.

Boys who don't want to play with guns and rather like pink are just boys. Some may be gay but some won't be. So little Fred doesn't want to do the rings but fancies doing the high beam? Fine, have a go but its not necessary to put him in a pink leotard and send him into the girls changing room. And no, he cant compete against the girls. But little Fred wont win against the other boys? Tough luck Fred - how is that different from a male bodied person clobbering a female in a rugby match or leaving her in his dust on the sprint track?

I grew up in the 1970s (which was a lot more sensible about such things actually). One sister hated dresses and skirts, always had her hair cut short, played with 'boys toys' (bought on her request by my parents and grandparents) and would play a boy in role play. She didn't then nor now want to be male. It was just her choice.

If this was today there would be some idiots pressurising her to take hormones and bind her boobs in an attempt to ape a male. I think I speak for her when I say 'fuck off'.

OP I think you need to ask to see the risk assessment that’s been done to introduce this new policy.....I’m betting there hasn’t been one.

I have spent 5 mins looking at their own safeguarding policies. The one for trips says this:

Ensure there are separate sleeping and washing areas for males and females, and staff and gymnasts. It would also be appropriate to allocate rooms in age groups where possible

So they are ignoring their own fucking safeguarding advice.

www.british-gymnastics.org/documents/footer-menu-items/british-gymnastics/7982-h-s-guidance-safe-trips/file

NothingOnTelly I agree, its fucking outrageous.

My point was reference to "prance, dancey," which I felt was a bit dismissive of an incredibly tough discipline.

And another, on their safeguarding principles:

^Although clubs should develop a policy that best meets their specific circumstances, the following underlying principles must be adopted:
• Where a club is fully responsible for changing facilities, adults must not be permitted to get changed in these facilities at the same time as children.*
• There must be separate changing facilities, or times, for males and females.
• No one should enter changing rooms whilst these are being used by members of the opposite
sex.^

safe environment

What the actual fuck?

Where are all the sensible adults? This is outrageous.

I don’t understand the logic here at all really. Are British Gymastics saying that they don’t segregate the sport on the basis of biological differences between male and female bodies, but on whether the gymnast prefers trousers to skirts or barbies to toy guns? What’s the rationale for that?

Where would they stand on Injuries? Would they be liable or wpuld parents have to sign a disclaimer to say that they understand it's nore risky but validating the identity is worth it?

twofalls That all sounds about right. And trips policy was one of about three pages of boxes we needed to tick.

I note that BG are expecting children as young as 8 to go on overnight trips, only advising additional measures if participants are younger.

My best guess is that two parts of the organisation are not talking to each other. So you have some "woke" former athlete/sport science graduate who has been talking to Mermaids and Stonewall, and you have Child Protection and other policies which have been drafted carefully with the help of Sport England, insurers and specialist lawyers and which have drawn heavily from existing experience and knowledge of risks.

Clubs and competitions will be run by some amazing and dedicated volunteers and parents. Being part of a sport, including the trips away, helped define my DDs childhood and teen years and she gained so much from it. Normally problems are not broadcast, as much as anything because of potential slander, but being on the inside I heard a few things that affected our club or other local clubs. (One local youth group sent in a DBS form for someone who had been a long term youth volunteer with a local church and who came with strong references. They had a phone call from the police within 24 hours - the flags were that strong.) I assume child protection co-ordinators at schools also pick up stuff. I know of one teenager who was barred from the sport after being convicted of sex offenses. But then there was once a problem with DH of someone in our local NCT babysitting circle. There are weird and dangerous people out there.

I believe problems can be avoided if clear guidlines are kept to. But expecting male and female bodied teens to share rooms, simply based on what is in their heads, is beyond bonkers. And an ability to hide "deadnames" as well takes you even further into the madness.

I understand a desire for equality is there, but the cost is way to high.

Thanks for your responses everyone. I have to do some work now but have posted in AIBU for traffic. Wish me luck!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3363538-AIBU-in-thinking-British-Gymnastics-new-guidelines-are-disadvantaging-girls-and-putting-them-in-danger?watched=1

Will be back later.

Oh FFS. Yet another nail in the bloody coffin for female sports.

For those who think that gymnastics may be immune to natal males parading as “female” athletes, elite (Olympic) gymnastics is largely judged on difficulty these days. If you have significantly higher difficulty you can overcome a lack of artistry - the women’s silver floor & vault medalist at the 2017 World Championships has very poor artistry but incredibly difficult tumbling and vaulting.

Men’s tumbling and vaulting absolutely smokes women in terms of difficulty, even someone like Simone Biles. She hasn’t competed a vault called a triple twisting Yurchenko yet (a really, really difficult skill for a woman) and would be the first woman to do so. Men regularly perform this vault in competition.

This is important because the first woman to compete the vault at a Worlds or the Olympics gets the skill named after her.

There is a real risk that the first “woman” to perform this skill (amongst others) will actually be a mediocre male gymnast and both the woman and men’s skill will be named after a bloke

"For those who think that gymnastics may be immune to natal males parading as “female” athletes,"

I don't think anyone on FWR thinks that won't happen.

I would also say - and it's not my area:-

As the gymastics are scored at least in part pretty subjectively (?) the presentation rather than the points for the things that you complete, could unconscious bias advantage the new breed of fabulous brave women on the teams?

I'm no expert on teh scoring so maybe this couldn't happen?

Not another :(

I don't know much about gymnastics, but I although it seems much more taiored to feminine presentations/ dance aspects superficially, I wonder if the inclusion of boys competing as girls will lead to the nature of the elements changing quite swiftly.

For example if boys-as-girls can include different and higher scoring combinations compared to the girls becasue of their shape and strength, eg on the asymetric bars maybe. Also with tumble combinations.

Again, I read about a study that showed women are more prone to ligament injury than men because of the fluctating hormone cycle. Injuries, as well as periods, have a huge impact on careers.

The uniform things is also a concern. I think leotard leg suits would be so much better for girls.

We won't let this stand though.

I am pretty sure that in ice skating, men sometimes do more spins etc - presumably leg strength and height have something to do with this.

Just read the email they sent along with this. It says:

We are developing further learning and development resources in this area to help you raise awareness and promote inclusion. We’ll write to you again when they are available.

So there is more to come. Oh great.

Ooh learning resources! Can’t wait to see them

Ah

Will the resources say
Any female who questions any of our "inclusive" policies - any girl who doesn't want to show with a bedicked person or share a bedroom with them - shall be sent to a Gulag.

Yes?

"The Gender Identity Research & Education Society (GIRES) estimates that about 1% of the British
population are gender non-conforming to some degree"

Just Googled the policy doc - it has this statement.

1%? That's bollocks. Most people are gender non conforming to some degree. Pretty much no-one adheres to the norms prescribed for their sex class all the time and for everything.

Oh wow

"The Act provides protection for transsexual people who are defined as people who are proposing to
undergo, are undergoing or have undergone the process of changing their sex. It does not generally
Policy for the participation of trans people in gymnastics competition
17th May 2018 v2.0 Page 3
protect trans people who identify as non-binary (do not identify as either male or female) or people
who cross-dress on an occasional basis. For that reason, the House of Commons Women and
Equalities Committee (2016) in their report on transgender equality recommend that the protected
characteristic of gender reassignment should be changed to that of gender identity and that some of
the terminology e.g. transsexual is updated."

THIS is lobbying for a change being incorporated into the procedures of a sports body? WTAF?????

DD already doesn't want to share a changing rooms with boys. She is only 8. Do you think gulags take such young children?