Dr Nicola Williams on BBC2 at 10.15, Victoria Live

[PersistenceIsNotFutile]

Twitter thread here: twitter.com/AskNic/status/1039073161252364288

Its clear from that Telegraph article that neither women's or men's prisons can accommodate trans without significant problems, special unit seems the best.

Thank you Tara,

To be fair - Tara didn't agree that transwomen should be allowed into women's prisons no matter what. Tara just wanted to be sure that people like Tara didn't end up in male prisons and on this point, I agree. A man who presents as female will be eaten alive in a male prison. That's not right either.

The fact is, no one wants to be with violent men.

The clear answer is a third/fourth space. Just the same as toilets, changing rooms, refuges...

I found myself agreeing with much of what Tara said, which surprised me.

The clear answer is a third/fourth space. Just the same as toilets, changing rooms, refuges...

Except that that isn't what the likes of TH wants. Because the discussion was going swimmingly until NW made that exact suggestion, TW tried interrupting, wasn't allowed to and suddenly became very 'male' in their response.

That is precisely why there should be no men/males, however long ago they started calling themselves 'she', in women's spaces.

I bet the middle-class political-mediators are up in arms that the BBC dared invite an actual trans offender to give their opinion on the matter.

I’m guessing that Victoria Derbyshire didn’t get the memo about Stonewall approved ‘experts’ only...

I am only about 2mins in on iplayer and I can see that Tara person is absolutely fizzing with rage and arrogance, before they have even spoken a word.

It's on iPlayer now if anyone's interested - starts at about 1 hr 47 mins in. www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bjjqvd/victoria-derbyshire-10092018

Dr Nic came across as very reasonable and well-informed.

Tara, as everyone's already pointed out, came across well initially and then appeared totally unhinged. Judging by Tara's record of criminal violence, I would guess she's on a very short fuse.

It's interesting that Tara is out of step with much of the trans lobby, who think that anyone who self-IDs as a woman should be treated as a woman. She makes that distinction between "genuine" transwomen and the rest (though I don't think Tara's had surgery, has she? Has she got rid of her 7 inch surprise?) I wonder if Tara is regarded as "truscum" by TRAs?

There is an interesting grey area about what we should do about prisoners like Tara. If it's true that she was raped three times in a men's prison, that's pretty shocking - though I bet there are also young men who have been raped inside a men's prison.

Is there any data on how trans or GNC males are treated in the male estate?

The at risk argument is used a lot but how much is it compared to the average male prisoner?

I watched a US documentary a few years back (might have been a Louis Thereoux one) and there was a trans prisoner featured who didn't appear to be any worse off than anyone else there. They were a bit of a curiosity I recall and one of the other inmates was their boyfriend. I think it was maximum security where everyone was in for a long stretch rather than on remand.

That's what was being suggested when Tara's mask slipped and the expletives started.

Sorry

I meant to quote in my last post

The clear answer is a third/fourth space. Just the same as toilets, changing rooms, refuges...

The fact is, no one wants to be with violent men.

The fact is that TH is one of these - that's why they went to prison.

Found the Louis Theroux clip. I was wrong about the type of sentence they had only been serving 3 months on that occasion. I remembered the boyfriend correctly though.

The only place the TRA have to go is to insist there is a tangible difference between Karen White and Tara Hudson. Which is why Tara was initially doing the horrified, I'm a victim too thing.

The reason Tara lost their temper was because this tack did not elicit a tangled response of 'We need to make a distinction between the fakers and the truetrans', but instead got the very sensible response that a third space seems sensible - which even headtilt Victoria seemed to think was a good idea.

It was at that point that Tara dropped the conciliatory stuff and whipped her finger up and shouted abuse that the sound person shut off. Which really should tell every rational person all they need to know about how genuinely 'reasonable' Tara and their ilk are.

I accidentally caught both the finger and the very start of the "fuck you" forming on her lips!

"That's what was being suggested when Tara's mask slipped and the expletives started."

Yes - but my impression was that Tara thought that meant all transwomen should be in the male estates. It seemed to me that Tara agreed with the idea of another third space.

But I might be wrong and conditioned to always see the best in people (that pesky female socialisation...)

Tara "fuck you" Hudson

That's going to stick as a nickname.

The fact is, no one wants to be with violent men

Tara Hudson is a violent man. Who has displayed many of the traits of violent male behaviour. I think it's really important to say this.

There were some statistics on Twitter this weekend breaking down the recorded sexual assaults in prisons (2012/2013 I think)

Men are sexually assaulted by males in prison at a massively higher incidence than women in female estate, unsurprisingly given the national rates.

What was also pointed out that White's crimes may now appear as part of the 2017 data for women sexually assaulted by women. they would represent a significant proportion (and therefore likely increase)

That Tara Hudson was sexually assaulted in men's estate is appalling.
So too all the other sexual assaults and rapes of male prisoners.

I have a 4 second video clip of Hudson flipping the finger and mouthing "fuck you", live on BBC this morning, but I don't think I can upload it to Mumsnet.

Sorry

Tara Hudson is a violent man. Who has displayed many of the traits of violent male behaviour. I think it's really important to say this.

Point well taken

The only place the TRA have to go is to insist there is a tangible difference between Karen White and Tara Hudson.

cf current case in California at a homeless shelter for women, required by federal law to admit self-id women:

'Shelter forced women to shower with person who identified as a transgender woman and sexually harassed them, lawsuit says'
(extract)
"FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A prominent Fresno charity, homeless women, and the transgender community all say they're experiencing a nightmare come true.

Nine women homeless women signed on to a lawsuit against Naomi's House and its parent company, the Poverello House, saying the last place they could go to feel safe is now dangerous because they're forced to shower with a transgender woman.

The Naomi House bills itself as a gentle haven of healing and a safe haven for single, homeless women, but a new lawsuit says it put a lot of women in harm's way in a very vulnerable spot -- the shower.

It says the shelter requires them to shower in groups, and it opened its doors to a person who identified themself as a transgender woman who made lewd and sexually inappropriate comments, and leered at them while they were naked.

"This is the biggest fear they bring up, that you're going to have people who may not even be transgender in bathrooms and settings where people are naked and their privacy rights are being violated," said Peter Kapetan, who filed the lawsuit on behalf of the women.

Poverello House administrators tell Action News federal law says they have to treat a person identifying as a woman as a woman -- and there's no way to test whether it's true." (conntinues)

concludes:
"Leaders in the Valley's transgender community tell us this is a nightmare for them too because if someone who calls herself a transgender woman is sexually harassing people, she put an already marginalized community in a bad light.

Karen Adell Scot, a local transgender advocate, even offered to train Naomi's House employees on how to recognize people just pretending to identify as the opposite gender.

One possible solution is already in place: Poverello House administrators say they added shower curtains about four months ago."
thread with link to article cited:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266198-No-True-Transwoman-transadvocates-question-whether-TW-is-genuine-after-said-TW-sexually-harasses-women-in-homeless-shelter

Karen Adell Scot, a local transgender advocate, even offered to train Naomi's House employees on how to recognize people just pretending to identify as the opposite gender.

I would genuinely love to know how that’s meant to work. Really. I’d also like to know what the difference is between “really” identifying and “just pretending”.

makeagif.com/i/sXVKxA

I've been musing over what the BBC / social media coverage might have been if Dr Nicola Williams (or another guest) was seen giving the middle finger and mouthing expletives following something that Tara Hudson had said....

So Tara Hudson, a violent male who has been imprisoned for smashing a man’s teeth out of his head, swore on national television because they didn’t get their way in a debate about a rapist in a female prison?

Well let’s just hope that means Tara won’t get on television for quite some time. I will be complaining to the BBC about the middle finger gesture on television whilst my 4 year old was watching daytime TV.