Dr Nicola Williams on BBC2 at 10.15, Victoria Live

[PersistenceIsNotFutile]

Twitter thread here: twitter.com/AskNic/status/1039073161252364288

Moving discussion elsewhere also silences discussion here. It is essential that this conversation happens on an accessible platform so that GC voices are visible, so others can learn.

There is a place for ‘secret’ discussion. But being able to have this discussion here in the open is essential.

Peachy yogurt has set up a site. Is it called hammer.com ?

I can’t keep up with multiple online spaces and I like it here. I even post on some of the other boards occasionally!

I don’t think this conversation should take place in segregated spaces. It effects all of us, after all.

Totally cool with those that don’t think it’s worth the effort though - we aren’t all obliged to agree on everything (and frequently don’t)!

I'm not on MeWe because it does not have a fraction of the public readership that MN has, and time is running out, and this forum is creating a sea change in public opinion.

It needs to be kept alive. That's why TRAs are gunning so hard for it.

Not to mention that some of the mods are, imo, gender critical and do their utmost to keep the dialogue going despite the rules.
There is a symbiotic relationship here for now.

@BettyduMonde you refer to politeness and rudeness.
To tell lies to another person (about your sex or anything else) is not politeness, and to demand that they agree with the lies is not politeness either. It is bullying. Giving in to bullying is not politeness. It is weakness.
When I want advice about politeness I don't take it from vile thugs such as "Aimee" Challenor, "Tara" Hudson etc.
Aimee claims to have a degree and two disabled younger siblings - is it "polite" to agree just because he says so? Tara claims to have been raped - is it "polite" to agree just because he says so? Of course not. It is an insidious culture of lies. What is needed is a million women to stand up and say this loudly.
As Rebecca West said "Feminism is anything that differentiates me from a doormat".

Setting up discussion elsewhere does not silence here on Mumsnet.
Letting TRAs make the rules for Mumnet doesn
The alternative sites I mentioned are free and not run by the likes of Aimee Challenor.

Being neutral about pronouns isn’t telling lies.

(Please don’t @ me, Green, you are the third new poster to do it today and it’s making you look like a sock puppet for the other accounts)

GreenWi82481196 you’re very welcome to Mumsnet, but kindly stop telling those of us who have been discussing the TRA issues for years, how we should be doing it. The rules were put in place and, much as it has caused us a lot of consternation, we follow them. In return Mumsnet has banned the abusive terms TERF and CIS, being used to insult us.

Please read the rules and stick around. You’ll learn a lot. If you continue to insist on using banned terms then, as a previous poster has stated, you will come across as a TRA deliberately trying to get your comments used by the TRA activists on twitter, to ‘prove’ how ‘transphobic’ Mumsnet is.

Green - there are 12 million unique users of MN every month. Many have blocked the Feminism board, so they wont' see what we say on here, but a great many read these threads even if they never post on here. Occasionally there are threads where "lurkers" come out and start posting openly, usually in response to something even more outrageous than the usual TRA goading. MN's own data shows that more and more users are coming onto the site through the Feminism board - a terrific own goal for all the TRA whining about us on other MSM sites like Twitter

So although I completely understand your frustration, for now I'm going to carry on using MN even with restrictions. Think of it like drinking in a pub where the landlord has some slightly odd rules about how many drinks you can buy in a round and whether regulars are allowed to stay on the pool table all night: you might think that the rules are bonkers and infuriating, but if it's the most convenient place to get a drink and the other customers are good to talk to, you might well decide to make it your local.

Green

You're not listening to what people are saying.

Mumsnet has 12 million users. This little feminist chat board on the site has approaching 200 thousand visitors a month. Many feminists have the same objections to language as you do but continue to post here because it is read by thousands of people wanting to see the GC view as well as the TRA view.

Therefore, we try to abide by the rules which disallow not only "misgendering" but also TRA terms such as "cis" and "TERF".

You can do that too. Or you can be banned. Only you can decide whether the Mumsnet lurker audience is worth it or not for you. The rest of us have already had that discussion and made that decision. As you'd know if you hadn't just turned up yesterday.

Please stop teaching us to suck eggs and make your own decision.

Other than that: welcome to FWR!

Green
You are behaving like a person who arrives 3 hours late to a party and begins lecturing the other party goers on their views which she doesn't know, having missed the conversations by being late.

In case you haven't realised, you are preaching to the fucking choir here.

None of us capitulate to bullying from TRAs.
We're on here because of the platform.

How are you going to get your million women to hear you and rise up with you if the only platform you have is your own broom cupboard?

I'm not about to critique another posters politeness, she's navigating the rules like us all, and we're all at different parts of our journey.

What do you want here?
For is all to agree that certain named individuals are men? Of course I agree!

Is it worth every gender critical feminist here getting banned from the biggest open gender critical online platform that is actually influencing the legislation under which we live to prove our credentials to you?

No!

Join a secret online group to do your venting. That's where I get to call people men. I do it here, I'm gone, and same for us all.

So Tara seems to be a very angry, er, woman.

She is complaining that she is getting more attention for this than if she had put the man in a coma. Which no doubt she could being a proper lady-like head-butter.

She seems to have missed the part where she sued the government in February then appeared on TV to discuss this stuff.

She also wants you to know that she's absolutely a qualified makeup artists and not at all a porn star, oh no, not in any way.

There is so much happening at the moment. TUC have just voted to support gender self-id:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3362478-After-some-very-moving-contributions-TUC-unanimously-supports-gender-self-declaration

It does seem that there has been increased attempts to smear WPUK & Fairplay for Women by those with iconsiderable influence.

The risks of gender self-id for vulnerable women in prison matter a great deal.

VD Show was important.
Melissa Briscoe and Nicola William's contributions were really important.
So, perhaps were Tara Hudson's (for different reasons)

I hope this thread won't be pulled.
There's a lot on here that matters.

Not a porn star, perhaps, but a "TV chat host" for channels like Playboy and a prolific glamour model . Thin line, thin line...

See, middle class woke bros, this is what happens when you try and appropriate a working class, sex worker’s actual lived experience for your political aims.

They will eventually see you for what you are/realise their lives are no better for your intervention and you will lose all control of the narrative.

Dannii/Tara has a profile on 'onlyfans' where you pay $20/month for videos + photos. i can only assume that they are not Tara doing her knitting.

I was just checking out old "dannii's"..... my goodness they do seem to get horny a lot. Busy bees.

I can only imagine that all the publicity did Tara's career no end of good.

Seems to be quite a good niche all-in-all.

*twitter

I missed the crucial word.

I think Tara is very brave and stunning for dealing with all that sticky mess.

I’d love for Jane Fae and Tara Hudson to be on Big Brother together...

I'd love a full TA big brother.

It would be amazing.

Tara wolf
Paris lee
Shon whatever
India again
Lily of course.

Tara seems to slag off quite a lot fellow transwomen. Not much solidarity going on:

"Dannii Dixon 🍾 🔞
After that girl died at elite in Turkey I wholely disapprove of butchering your body in the name of vanity!! Especially trans women who are suppose to be role-models (coughs - Paris lees) people need to accept their born beauty...... 💖"

Presumably plastic tits are ok, but anything more than is just vanity, lol.

It's apparently £60 for 20 minutes web cam, according to Dannii's Twitter. More knitting, I presume.

Seems to be assuming this girl's pronouns as well.

"Just seen a boy around 16 with his mates in McDonald’s wearing a dress 👗 no fucks given!! My my how the world is changing"

Tara seems quite straightforward. Tara likes sex with men.

Quite easy to understand.

Some of these other characters with their nappies & their jelly wrestling and whatever ? God knows.