Some lighter reading - gender non-confirming goths oppress trans people!

[AngryAttackKittens]

Given how much recent news has been horrifying I thought some of us could do with a laugh, so hear you go - Robert Smith's eyeliner is oppressive to people who want everyone to know that wearing makeup means you're a woman.

www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2017/06/23/goth_culture_needs_to_embrace_the_gender_identities_of_all_its_members.html

I think this one is a sincere idiot rather than a clever satirist, sadly.

I think those of us who are trans and goth wind up becoming trapped in the binary all over again

Oh, FFS. No, love, the goth got you out of it and the impossible suffocation of queer put you straight back in it again.

These people are literal violence to read, aren't they? After a paragraph, you're longing to poke out your eyes with a stick.

Apparently it was borderline transphobic to do that while identifying as a man

Will Smith’s son wore a dress and got attacked for it? Wtf?

If it's transphobic to wear a dress while identifying as a man (still trying to bend my brain around that) is it transphobic to wear a dress while not identifying as a woman?

This is all so reminiscent of Deborah Tannen's work. Especially the parts that state that whether you do or do not wear make-up is marked behaviour for a woman. So, if I extrapolate from "A woman's place/behaviour is usually in the wrong," then, very probably, JellySlice.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/will-smiths-son-as-the-new-face-of-louis-vuitton-womenswear-might-seem-progressive-but-its-a6797461.html

Let's see if anyone can spot the very obvious problem with this paragraph.

When you get out of bed in the morning the most important thing you have to do all day is tell the world what your gender is, because from that, everything else flows. You may think that your job is to be an office supervisor or a stockbroker or police officer but these are all human constructs. Deep down your real job is to reproduce, and showing other humans your gender is the first step on that path.

I think those of us who are trans and goth wind up becoming trapped in the binary all over again

If you consider yourself trans then you have already trapped yourself in 'the binary'. In a completely non-existent binary, a binary of stereotypes that you have colluded in.

Deep down your real job is to reproduce, and showing other humans your gender is the first step on that path.

Oh dear.

AAK. Miss! Miss! I know this one!!!
If showing humans your gender is the first step in the real job of reproduction, then 'showing your gender' by wearing the 'uniform' of the opposite sex will get you the sack.

(Also, promoting reproduction as your real job is the foundation of the patriarchy and has been used to oppress women for centuries).

It's funny isn't it? The assumptions of cretins. I remember a quiz show years and years ago where Russel Brand and Noel Fielding were larking around and deliberately losing then the final question was about football. The host (Jimmy Carr I think?!) was so convinced that they were effeminate men that he bet them 1000 points they wouldn't get the question right. But of course they are actually ultra masculine extra-testosterone fuelled men and they are both huge football fans and got it right. How could anyone anywhere ever think Noel Fielding or Russell Brand are effeminate? Only someone stupid enough to this eyeliner=woman could do that.

Not the sharpest tool in the shed, that writer.

I'm pretty sure Russell Brand is a werewolf. If he was intending to signal possession of a ladygender presumably he'd do something about the chest hair?

I just can't wrap my head around the way people like both authors linked see the world. It's like being trapped in an Emily Howard skit, but if you laugh they'll thump you.

"I'm trapped in the binary" is my new complaint for when I need tea and sympathy.

This thread has made me very nostalgic for the gorgeous boys with eyeliner from my youth. It’s ridiculous how backwards we seem to have gone with gender stereotyping.

I’ve always loved the Goth aesthetic but could never pull it off myself.

So, male goths wearing makeup isn’t fair, because then if a mtf goth wears makeup people just think he’s the same as the male goths and not special? And male goths wearing makeup isn’t fair, because ftm goths then have to wear makeup to be like them and people just think they’re female goths? Have I got that right?
OH, THE HUMANITY.

An aesthetic built on subverting gender norms also reinforces those same norms by constantly referencing them, and whether one’s gender presentation is read as subversive or subpar still depends on how digestible it is to mainstream society.

Consider the possibility that a. most people aren't as obsessed with "gender" as you are and thus aren't being as judgy as you think and b. this is partly because despite what your narcissism may be telling you you are not the star of anyone else's life story.

That's the grievance I picked out of the miasma of self-pity Doobigetta. FtM goths want to be all masculine and recognised as chaps (because Trans) but need to wear eyeliner and lipstick (because Goth) and ITS SO UNFAIR.

(I want to exclusively eat custard slices, because custard slices, but also want not to get type 2 diabetes and scurvy. It's a dilemma.)

I spent most of my student years chasing adorable gothy chaps with eyeliner AND hairy chests. Obviously I was doing it all wrong, since eyeliner is for lassies and hairy chests for laddies, and breaking down rigid gender categories is, well, what? What would they have made of me with my lipstick and tattoos and DMs? 🙄

What would they have made of me with my lipstick and tattoos and DMs?

Nonbinary? Agender?

I'm 59. I don't think I have enough time left on the planet to read more than 2 paragraphs.

on the other hand, is an individual saying “this is me” while those around them assume they just haven’t read the manual

Much like my penchant for expensive, highly tailored 40s and 50s style dresses is me saying "this is me"

Can we talk about me?

(I want to exclusively eat custard slices, because custard slices, but also want not to get type 2 diabetes and scurvy. It's a dilemma.)

Oh tell me about. The havoc custard slices plays with fitting into my dresses leaves me sleepless.

This is the flipside of not wanting women to stop wearing makeup, because transwomen need heavy makeup to have any chance of passing. Everyone has to fit into gender stereotypes for the benefit of transpeople.

Lol, if they’re coming for the goths now, who’s next? I look forward to calls for the banning of pantomime dames. Men pretending to be women for comedic value must surely be transphobic.

I wonder if I'm goth fluid nowadays, since I can't be bothered to do the makeup except for special occasions.

Can we talk about me?

Let's! I'm certain you are much more interesting than the transgoth.

@Amortentia pantomime dames surely are trans accordingly to Stonewall definition.