Reading Pride

[JellySlice]

Looks like I'm going with my 15yo and her friends to Pride tomorrow. They are naive rainbow-swallowing trans-allies, and I am a gender-critical liberal (small-L). I am not going to spoil their fun or embarrass dd, I am simply there as their discreet chaperone.

But...

Should I, still discreet, do something...more?

Suggestions...?

Saying that you would never, ever be attracted to a transgender person is transphobic,

Then a male saying that he would never ever be attracted to a male person is homophobic.

Wear whatever you want that makes you feel comfortable.
Accept that people see what they see.
A lesbian is a female homosexual. It shouldn't be considered an edgy or dangerous thing to say nowadays.
People who agree with the above no longer attend pride and similar events because not only do they not feel welcome, they feel very unsafe.
It's been stated enough times.

Yes, if a straight man says he is only attracted to women that is homophobia because he might see a man with long hair from behind and think he's a woman and be attracted, so you can't say you're never attracted to men because you don't know, do you?

And no, most trans people don't "pass" with any degree of scrutiny. Unless they transitioned very young.

Saying that you would never, ever be attracted to a transgender person is transphobic, because you wouldn't necessarily know who was trans and who wasn't. Some of us pass, and saying that 'you can always tell' reeks of confirmation bias.

I can't possibly comment on all trans and I think that those who trans very young might pass a whole lot better but I don't know of any so it is hard to say, but I can see why that might be possible.

However, of those transwomen I know in real life, I'm sorry but physically they seem like men to me. I know one person, personally who is pretty high profile, not as high as India but well known enough to be on radio and tv and she is simply obviously born male, even though she has had the full op, but she is told day in day out how fabulous she looks, so probably has internalised that plus she has always the most amazing amount of self confidence.The truth is people think she does a good job st putting herself together but is still obviously trans. I knew this person before and after and they transed late, over age 40. They are so steeped in male privilege they will never, ever know what the female experience is and that privilege seems to mean for this person that they are unable to put it to one side and accept they even have it.

Lastly, even if a transwomen passed amazingly well how can you possibly argue that being revolted by the discovery of a penis is transphobic?

I thought I was pansexual for a while, and I think that this was me being confused about my gender identity. I really, really tried to like men. I just didn't

I'm confused about this bit. Why did you feel the need to "try to like men"? Why not just be a straight male who plays with your appearance and expresses your personality however you want to?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a heterosexual person apologise for the fact that they’ve tried to be attracted to members of their own sex, but couldn’t.
I’ve been forced into a situation where I’ve had to defend myself because I’ve tried to like members of the opposite sex, but couldn’t. It’s actually quite common.
So much trying to appropriate experience here.

I’ve been forced into a situation where I’ve had to defend myself because I’ve tried to like members of the opposite sex, but couldn’t. It’s actually quite common.

Yes that's what I understood from gay and lesbian friends. Was quite jarring to see a straight male person say that.

It’s attempting to take homophobia and weaponise it against us, to separate out the good lesbians from the bad lesbians so all the bad lesbians can be excluded or scared off, then hey presto, all the lesbians at pride are the good, inclusive, nice type > all lesbians are nice and inclusive, apart from you.

YY. It must be so hard to see this lesbian erasing shit all the time it's the same tactic this male supremacy movement uses against women everywhere. Cuckoos in the nest. Get in and make demands and emotionally blackmail. But I know it started with lesbians.

It's absolutely fucking mental and ridiculous. For anyone to argue that a lesbian is transphobic for not wanting to get it on with a trans woman because they pass well, it's nuts.

Best T-shirt award goes to:

Two women wearing T-shirts emblazoned

I’M A VAGITARIAN

I hate to say it , but all of the lesbians standing with banners at tge front of every single UK pride since Pride in London was hijacked seem to be absolutely fine with transgender lesbians
What does this prove though? How are we supposed to know if these people really are lesbian, or if they just fit under your new definition of lesbian?
See that's what happens when you start to redefine words to suit yourself. People stop listening to you, and they stop trusting that you're telling the truth and not just making shit up.
Just to address another point you made earlier, about being 'assigned male' at birth. This is incorrect (unless perhaps if you are intersex). When a baby is born their genitalia is observed and determined to be male or female. Thats it, and pretty much everyone on mumsnet (and the whole world) knows this, so it's really pretty pointless to say otherwise on here.

I’M A VAGITARIAN

Shocking transphobia!

I take it you reported to the police for hate crime?

I can well believe there are transwomen who pass as women, or we wouldn't we talking about women finding themselves in bed with a person they thought was a female who unexpectedly has a penis. At that point, passing as a woman is not going to happen with male genitalia. I doubt that happens all that often, given the number of trans people i see and meet who definitely don't pass, for more than a single heartbeat, and who instead are doing something more valuable and interesting - subverting expectations. Be a manly man in a dress 404. Revel in it. You weren't assigned male, you are gloriously male.

‘Feminine’ men rock, as do ‘masculine’ women ❤️

Leaving aside politics and agendas, have any lesbians here personally been called a bigot by a transwoman for not wanting to date them? I'm just learning about this issue and am interested in how widespread it is in the real world?

Sorry, just RTFT and can see that some have. As you were!

Re: the earlier comparison with being a racist at a Black Pride event. This is nothing like that. This is like being Jewish at an 'anti-racism' event that has invited Louis Farrakhan as a guest speaker. The fact that the speaker may belingvto a group that suffers prejudice in no means means that they cannot be bigoted themselves, nor diminishes the fact that you, yourself, suffer from bigotry.

sanddunes not me, I'm too butch for them, they tend to keep their previous preferences and most straight men don't fancy me! What they do instead is tell me how hideous I am and how they're much more attractive women. It's not very friendly.
I haven't read of any riots at Reading yet, so presumably OP's day was ok...

On 'assigned gender at birth'. This is nonsense as most women will know the sex of the baby following their scans. In fact, have to say you DON'T want to know, if you'd rather wait till birth.

Also, if you have a genetic condition that, say, effects only male children then you may wish to have only female embryos implanted. An embryo can be sexed when its smaller than a full stop, long before the gonads develop.

Aspie

So, not 'assigned male at birth; more like "recognised male pre-implantation" then?

Not quite so catchy, this Biological Reality thing...

We've left, now. It was pleasant and peaceful.

But TBH I really feel that the rainbow of my youth has lost its way. The whole point of the rainbow flag was that you did not have to define yourself, you did not have to conform to any stereotypes. It was truly welcoming.

The statement it made was not "We are gay", but "We celebrate our individuality and commonality, not judge it".

Now there are a multiplicity of 'rainbow' flags, each 'celebrating' something else. Nobody seems to understand them, but if you don't fit precisely, then you're judged.

One of my roles is as a Union rep.

A few years back I stopped attending marches for better pay and conditions or defending my pension because I wouldn't match besides people carrying Soviet flags or placards about Israel, most of whom don't work for my department anyway.

Start your own movement, don't hijack mine. If you can't find enough people to march for your own cause maybe it isn't supported as well as you think it is.

Entryism is like a virus. It's about hijacking the reproductive powers of a host cell and giving nothing in return.

Yup it's a judgefest. Excluding those and freely spilling judgement, bile and threats of violence towards non compliant gay women who won't abandon (at least verbally and outwardly) their sexual orientation to avoid hurting the feelings of people born male. How progressive. How liberated.

You have no idea how many of those people apparently supporting transwomen lesbians were actual lesbians. If they sleep with people with penises, they are not lesbians. You have no idea how many lesbians (actual, female born people exclusively attracted to female born people) have given up, stayed away and gone back in the closet because they feel disenfranchised, silenced and unsafe. You will come to see a large proportion of women silently stop using women's facilities if the GRA changes go through. But you won't care, because to you those women are scum who deserve all they get for having different views and feelings to you. (Change the word 'women' in that sentence for 'Muslims' or 'Jews' or 'Blacks' or 'gays' and see how progressive or moral this view point truly is.)

And no, there is 0 chance of me ever being attracted to someone born male. I'm lesbian, that's a sexual orientation that was decriminalised some time ago, I don't appreciate you trying to make me ashamed of it. Men are different shapes, sizes, angles, they smell different - nothing wrong with any of it, but I am attracted only to women's bodies. So apparently are you, and I'm not shaming you for it. I'm still not sure how you think someone with a penis is going to 'pass' to the point of a lesbian not recognising them when they have sex? What you're implying is, give it a try, you might not notice the difference. Rather like the transwoman who wrote with indignation about lesbians refusing to consider that their woman's penis would feel totally different inside them to a man's penis, so it was transphobic to refuse. (Oi darlin', if I give you one I'll turn you straight! Oi darlin', you just haven't met the right bloke yet) - lesbians have been hearing this from men for centuries. Why do you think that might be?

I am not transphobic for being homosexual. I will not lie like a good girl that yes, of course I'd be open THEORETICALLY to sex with a transwoman lesbian, because it would be a lie. It would stop me being abused and insulted, but it would be a lie.

Knickknack

Powerful post.

You have no idea how many of those people apparently supporting transwomen lesbians were actual lesbians. If they sleep with people with penises, they are not lesbians. You have no idea how many lesbians (actual, female born people exclusively attracted to female born people) have given up, stayed away and gone back in the closet because they feel disenfranchised, silenced and unsafe