Reading Pride

[JellySlice]

Looks like I'm going with my 15yo and her friends to Pride tomorrow. They are naive rainbow-swallowing trans-allies, and I am a gender-critical liberal (small-L). I am not going to spoil their fun or embarrass dd, I am simply there as their discreet chaperone.

But...

Should I, still discreet, do something...more?

Suggestions...?

You assume that I'm not trans, but insist that I should nonetheless support transpeople.

You assume that I'm not lesbian, but insist that I should therefore not support lesbians.

Lol OP if you are trans you really have some self hatred going on there!

What gaslighting bullshit, Jasmine. You’re seriously telling the three lesbians who have posted their experience above that it’s all in their heads?

Or perhaps I’ve misunderstood and you were telling them they should accept dick?

Well I cannot profess to be an expert on what ALL lesbians feel, unlike you. But I can tell you that many, many lesbians did not go to the Manchester one, where I am from because they didn't want to waste good money on something in which they feel they have no place. So were therefore unable to not show their support, as they were not there to not show it. I know this, because they have told me. However, as I haven't spoken to all MANCHESTER biological female lesbians I won't make any sweeping statements. Also the lesbians I do know are GC critical and I assume the lesbians you know aren't, so neither of our anecdotal experiences are enough to make an emphatic statement either way. Although you don't seem to be the type of person to let that stop you.

Lol OP if you are trans you really have some self hatred going on there!

That is sadly very true, and making it such a flippant comment shows that you do not know anybody who has suffered the distress that leads up to full transition. You have not seen the depths of self-hatred and despair into which a person can sink when their self-image does not fit with society's expectations of them.

So what about the big LwiththeT movement? The thousands of lesbians who used the hashtag are definitely not wanting 'support' from transphobes.

Loads of lesbians support their trans siblings. Loads. A misguided attempt by people like the OP to 'support' lesbians by being hateful towards trans people is only going to anger and piss off the majority of lesbians.

It's a difficult one as, as usual it's the vocal minorities (as I see it) on both sides causing the problems. I don't think ANYBODY straight, lesbian or gay should be forced to deal with genetalia they do not want to deal with. However for me..... I fall in love with PEOPLE, if I got to know someone and fell in love with them as a person I wouldn't give two glittery shites what genetalia they had. That's my problem with this whole thing, I'm a total LGBTQ+ or whatever Ally (I identify as Bi) but I just don't get what the obsession with genetalia is. Love, is love is love. Why can't everyone just love PEOPLE and get to know PEOPLE and be free to love who they want regardless (laws of informed consent and age aplys of course) and leave everyone in peace. I'm not saying this to be goady (100% honest) but I really don't get it at all. I would like it explained to me how genetalia makes a difference as to me it's the person that matters.
Honestly, I'm posting because I want to learn and understand - how can I be informed if I don't understand after all?

OP go to pride, keep quiet and absorb everything, then use it to have a discussion about consent and how NOBODY should be forced into a relationship with anyone they don't want to be for whatever the reason. It's not about penises, it's about everybody being allowed to make their own (legal) choices without fear of discrimination.

I hope my ramble made sense.

Right OP so why would you want to make them feel worse?!?

Yes, the gaslighting, and I expect the extremely deluded believe it will work, but the other 82% of us, every biology textbook ever written and UK equality law knows what a lesbian is, and knows what a woman is.

I think your daughter and her friends sound lovely.

As an add on to my previous post - I do think I kinda get what the lesbians up thread are getting at about feeling they are forced into feeling they are not welcome because they don't want relationships with people who just 'identify' as female but are still very much male. But I also know from trans friends how hard a transition can be. May I ask, if you knew someone wanted to fully transition but couldn't (either money or couldn't at that time because they were waiting to get it done or whatever, sorry I'm not gonna pretend to fully know about these things.) would that make a difference? Again asking to understand as I'm someone who believes hearing both sides is always best and I'd rather ask awkward questions then just assume.

Drama queen, the reason genitals aren’t an issue for you is because you are bisexual, you can be sexually attracted to members of either of the two sexes that make up the human race. Lesbians are homosexual females, so we are attracted to members of the same sex, and not members of the opposite sex.
You would be amazed how many times I’ve had this conversation, with my parents, my friends, and random dudes who think they can magically change me if I just gave them a chance. It has a name, it’s called homophobia.

Drama - on a personal level, it would make a difference, to me at least. But that’s not really relevant. The issue with self-ID is that women and girls faced with a stranger in the gym showers or in a hostel can’t tell the difference between someone who is genuine and someone who’s a predator. Women like the domestic violence victim in Canada who was terrified when she found herself sharing a twin room with a male-bodied individual who leered at women in the refuge. And who was then thrown out of the hostel for objecting to this.

Drama, why don’t you pop over to datalunch and ask the gay men whether they think genitals are a big deal?

What has quietly recognising lesbian fact to do with making a trans person feel bad?

Mono-sexuality (homo or hetero) isn’t just about genitals - it’s also about aesthetics, smell & heap of other conscious and subconscious traits..

Cosmetically altering one’s genitals doesn’t do a jot for all the other things on the list...

Take photos of two types, if you can.

(1) anti-lesbian placards, references to the London Pride demo, placards that labour the point that Trans are very much at the centre of Pride, and placards/banners that mentions te rfs (sic).

(2) I think that there is a broader issue for women - not just lesbians - about Pride because I've got the impression that men in the LBGT don't like women very much. Through the prism of London and Manchester and so much else, I now find the over-sexualised depictions of women by drag queens and gay men etc creepy, creepy, creepy. And boy, don't they go to extremes while "having a laugh". Yep, take photos of sexy trollops in their boas and basques, if you've got the time.

Hotrocker thankyou for your reply. I would never want to change you. It's your right to refuse to have anything to do with a penis. I actually also decry the trans activists who insist it's anti trans because lesbians don't want relationships with them. In my eyes it's not anti-trans (as long as they 'live and let live') to just not want a relationship with them... it's their choice.

Maybe it is because I'm bi, but I see my trans MTF person as a woman and the trans FTM person where I work as a man and I still would if I were in a relationship with them I'm pretty sure, so that's why I wondered.
I think I'm very much an 'each to their own person' - I think everyone should be free to live and love however they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact on others. Biological men wanting to live as women = no problem BUT if they insist someone is anti that because they don't want their genetalia waved in their face/don't want a relationship with them it then becomes not ok.

OK, this is right outside my own experience as a very boring straight woman who's never been involved in Pride, but having spent a bit of time on Twitter, is it possible that any or all of the following are true?

1. Older women who are real old school lesbians, i.e. only attracted to other women, are not going to Pride any more and are increasingly disconnected from organisations like Stonewall and publications/websites like Pink News. In a lot of cases this does appear to be because they don't feel welcome or they feel actually unsafe, which is depressing. The Manchester Pride man who has now resigned made a comment which was not only sexist, it was ageist. No wonder older women are not going.

1. A lot of people seem to go to Pride now because it's a very woke thing to do and/or it's seen as a good day out. This is nothing to do with their own sexuality. A lot of them probably identify as nonbinary or genderfluid because they reject gender stereotypes. We are living through a period where many young people accept the idea of gender identity and seem not to have grasped that sexuality is different and has a close relation to biology. See Fox and Owl for a particularly good example of this. Some of these people are gay or bisexual but a lot aren't. I would put good money on most of them settling down with a partner of the opposite sex within a decade.

1. Most of the people who make the throwaway remarks about gender critical people being fixated about what's in other people's underwear are very young and have little life experience to inform what they're saying. They don't have children and they have no grasp of the enormous difference being female can make to a person's life chances.

As someone who is Straight and female, I can tell you that no way could I imagine enjoying sex with another person who looked male but had female genitalia. I might love the person but the idea of being intimate with female genitalia is completely repulsive. I don't know why. I own those body parts myself. The idea that a lesbian should have to accept a female penis is frankly ridiculous. It's just utter nonsense.

It's so obvious that genitals matter when it comes to sex and you don't need to be gay or lesbian to know that.

Sorry repulsive sounds wrong or a bad choice of words. I don't think it's a repulsive act but it I wouldn't find it remotely a turn on, in the same way as I am guessing 95% of gay men wouldn't.

hotrocker If I was on that board I would but that's me, I like asking questions when I don't understand as I like to learn and broaden my horizons. Sometimes I even learn I've been wrong about things and it all makes me grow as a person.

Betty We had a MTF student at work (joined when they were 15) if I hadn't been told I would've not known they had even been male. But then again I think I do get what you are getting at - maybe I'm just 'gender blind' or summin as I just don't tend to care about gender. Some people do though and they have a right to protection just as trans people do. It's a difficult and horrible minefield! When my son talks about gender I just tell him he's him and that's what matters.
Namechanged I think what I said above kinda answers what you said to and thank you for your reply. That way of putting it makes more sense to me in the general way. I know my MTF friend uses the disabled toilets (though feels bad to do that) as she doesn't feel right in the men's but knows some women wouldn't feel comfortable with her in the ladies.

warmwishes yes I think my own 'not getting it' may well be down to me being bi.
Tbh I think I am 'getting' it a bit now, but either way, whether I get it or not, whstever the reason someone doesnt want to have sex with someone it's their choice and I'm sorry some like hotrocker have been made to feel otherwise.

I know my MTF friend uses the disabled toilets (though feels bad to do that) as she doesn't feel right in the men's but knows some women wouldn't feel comfortable with her in the ladies.

Same. And TBF if your GD is so severe that you have to undergo major surgeries and lifelong cross-sex hormones in order to survive, then maybe it is a form of disability.