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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Reading Pride

185 replies

JellySlice · 31/08/2018 12:18

Looks like I'm going with my 15yo and her friends to Pride tomorrow. They are naive rainbow-swallowing trans-allies, and I am a gender-critical liberal (small-L). I am not going to spoil their fun or embarrass dd, I am simply there as their discreet chaperone.

But...

Should I, still discreet, do something...more?

Suggestions...?

OP posts:
Turph · 01/09/2018 00:57

Pride is full of straight people so no, it hasn't been a gay thing for years. We're in a "post-gay" world whether we like it or not. (No dodgy local gay pubs, everyone's on hookup apps or moved to the big city.) Everyone, from straight allies, to students with blue hair, to trades unionists and local emergency services staff, shows up wearing rainbow coloured stuff. It's very nice of them to do so.
Actual gays and actual lesbians exist in pockets of renegades online. A bit like the personals in gay papers back in the day. A trip to a dodgy pub to check the listings in a free paper full of rent boy ads. Thrilling times.
I imagine the secret GC parties that will start being held will be quite fun, I hope I'm not too old to attend by then...

404NameNotFound · 01/09/2018 01:40

HavingALittleBabyToolshed

I am a trans lesbian, as in I was assigned male at birth, and am transitioning to female. I have not yet begun medical transition, though I have two medical appointments related to my transgender identity in the next few days.

I thought I was pansexual for a while, and I think that this was me being confused about my gender identity. I really, really tried to like men. I just didn't.

I am out to my family and friends, but have not yet transitioned socially in public, though I am intending to present female-ish at Reading Pride tomorrow. And no, I don't use the women's bathrooms yet.

NotBadConsidering · 01/09/2018 01:57

404NameNotFound

So you’re heterosexual then.

How are you intending to present “female-ish”? Jeans, t-shirt, Doc Martens but a dash of lippy? I’m assuming there’s a spectrum of presentation:

Female
Female-ish
Male-ish
Male?

HavingALittleBabyToolshed · 01/09/2018 02:00

Thanks for the reply 404

What does intending to present female-ish mean in this context?

404NameNotFound · 01/09/2018 02:14

HavingALittleBabyToolshed

By that, I mean that I'm not going to be wearing a dress or skirt. I'm going to try to look reasonably androgynous. I fully recognise that thinking clothing makes a person a woman or a man (non-binary gender identities are kinda excluded from this one) is very wrong, however, most people you meet on the street will associate dresses with womanhood, meaning that they'd be more likely to recognise that I'm a woman.
Because my body appears stereotypically manly, I might use clothes to distract both myself and other people from that. At some point, I'll finally go out and buy some half-decent dresses. I've tried one on, it was extremely comfortable, but I'm not swimming in money. When I've been on hormone therapy for a while and I'm more comfortable in my own body, I might go back to my current 'butch lesbian with bad hair' look. I think this might be the reason a lot of transgender women try to look ultra-feminine, if we can even define feminine.

HavingALittleBabyToolshed · 01/09/2018 02:19

I appreciate you replying to me, so please take this as a genuine question rather than an attack, I think we have a good back and forth here.

Do you appreciate why a lot of what you’ve said re presenting as a female-ish is really quite offensive to women?
It seems like you get an aspect of it, which is great but equally you disregard it which many of us consider damaging.

404NameNotFound · 01/09/2018 02:26

Yes, I do. I entirely get that womanhood isn't defined by clothing (and neither is manhood, for that matter).
I recognise that female-ish was likely the wrong word to use, I just wasn't sure what the write one was. Androgyny, but attempting to appear feminine?

LadybirdsAreBirds · 01/09/2018 06:04

meaning that they'd be more likely to recognise that I'm a woman

They won't see any such thing. That's the whole crux of the problem. But it's absolutely understandable and right that you'd want to wear what makes you feel comfortable.

LadybirdsAreBirds · 01/09/2018 06:13

I'd like to explain what I meant above. I feel that looking to women to partake in your false belief that you are a women in order to validate you is expecting them to lie. I will be polite, kind to anyone I meet up to the point they are impolite to me. And up to the point that they claim that their belief means they get the hard-fought rights of women.

Gender no-conformity (wishing to adopt the stereotypical clothing behaviour, clothing, jobs etc of the opposite sex) is completely understandable - many women do it. Because they don't believe those stereotypes have anything to do with them as individuals.

LadybirdsAreBirds · 01/09/2018 06:38

Lastly 404, I want to say that I hope you find peace in your body and enjoy Pride.

Dhalandchips · 01/09/2018 08:18

404, tis is a genuine question, I have no agenda other than my own numpty was...you were born male, but now want to be female, but identify as a lesbian. Doesn't that make you heterosexual? You can't be a lesbian with a penis, surely? Isn't that offensive to lesbians! I mean, if you got into some sexy time with a lesbian, wouldn't she be horrifed to discover a penis? Sorry, I'm truly baffled by it all.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 09:35

Males are neither women nor lesbians. A woman is female and a lesbian is a female person attracted only to other members of the female sex.

Have a great day out at Pride. But please try to have some consideration for how offensive it is to many lesbians for males to affect this description. Find a better word.

404NameNotFound · 01/09/2018 09:52

I hate to say it, but all of the lesbians standing with banners at the front of almost every single UK Pride since Pride in London was hijacked seem to be absolutely fine with transgender lesbians.

Original poster
JellySlice · 01/09/2018 09:55

Perhaps because of the vicious backlash any non-compliant females receive? Hmm

OP posts:
LadybirdsAreBirds · 01/09/2018 09:57

Yes. They are kind to you to your face. Women are socialised to be kind even to ther detriment. And up to the point that you were to get upset and call them bigoted for not wanting to sleep with you. I am sure you wouldn't do that though.

NotMeOhNo · 01/09/2018 09:59

Why do you hate to say it? Shouldn't you be proud of being part of a male sexual rights movement that bullies female homosexuals?
By calling yourself a lesbian you show no respect for women. Shame on you.

annandale · 01/09/2018 10:11

I would just go and observe with as open a mind as you can.

Re that sign that jasmine was promoting, I believe that 'my' feminism (Hmm it's not a possession or an accessory) 'includes' women, men and trans people. What it does inevitably do is make me very aware of what it means to be biologically female or male and what my culture requires of me and otgers because of that. If all 'my feminism' requires me to do is say 'HIIIIIIIII!!! YOU LOOK UH-MAZING BABES! LOVE YOOOOOOOUUU' to men and women then sure i can do that, but i'm not seeing the feminist analysis in that tbh.

UpstartCrow · 01/09/2018 10:12

''Look good, be nice, roll over when told'' is not feminism.

Goldenbug · 01/09/2018 10:21

I think a GBLT pride event is for GBLT people and those that support them. If you don't like some of the GBLT, it's not for you.

404NameNotFound · 01/09/2018 10:23

I would never want anybody to have to feel entitled to sleep with anybody, and I'm fairly sure that most of the people on here know perfectly well that they're misrepresenring that fact with relation to transgender people. Saying you don't want to sleep with a particular person is your right, and I shall fight to defend it. Saying that you would never, ever be attracted to a transgender person is transphobic, because you wouldn't necessarily know who was trans and who wasn't. Some of us pass, and saying that 'you can always tell' reeks of confirmation bias.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 10:25

Why do you say GLBT? Isn't the generally accepted acronym LGBT? PS the people who protested at various "Prides" and "Dyke Marches" around the world this year (not just London) were lesbians. Why shouldn't they get to have a say?

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 10:26

I'm fairly sure that most of the people on here know perfectly well that they're misrepresenring that fact with relation to transgender people.

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

HotRocker · 01/09/2018 10:29

404
You are not a lesbian. Men cannot be lesbians. Lesbians are not attracted to males, so stay away from lesbians.
I wish I had a quid for every bloke who’s tried to pick me up by telling me he’s a lesbian. You are no different.

Goldenbug · 01/09/2018 10:29

Why do you say GLBT? Because I can never remember which way round is usual.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 10:30

It isn't GLBT.

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