Reading Pride

[JellySlice]

Looks like I'm going with my 15yo and her friends to Pride tomorrow. They are naive rainbow-swallowing trans-allies, and I am a gender-critical liberal (small-L). I am not going to spoil their fun or embarrass dd, I am simply there as their discreet chaperone.

But...

Should I, still discreet, do something...more?

Suggestions...?

just go and don't overthink it.

Gender has bugger all to do with sexual orientation. I can be attracted to feminine looking women, androgynous women, butch masculine women, but never a man, or never in my 30 odd years of life to date anyway. All the people I’ve ever been attracted to have one thing in common however, and that thing is biological sex.

Most of the people who make the throwaway remarks about gender critical people being fixated about what's in other people's underwear are very young and have little life experience to inform what they're saying.

Ain't that the truth. I'm revolted by penises. I have very close friends who are male, I could like many lesbians have done faked my way through enough sex to keep a marriage going and enjoyed loving the person and the family it led to, and a safe straight illusion to prevent the stigma of being gay. But I'm sexually attracted exclusively to women's bodies. That some men who identify as women are hurt and upset by my sexual orientation is not my problem, it's not my job to solve it for them, and it is not some act of 'hate' towards them. It is not more virtuous to be bisexual than homosexual. Being homosexual is not selfish or stupid or something that can be overcome with a bit of effort to be kinder to others.

Jasmine, I'm interested that you perceive lesbians who feel disenfranchised by Pride as being the ones with the problem and their concerns simply equating with being anti trans people. That says it all really.

It is not more virtuous to be bisexual than homosexual. Being homosexual is not selfish or stupid or something that can be overcome with a bit of effort to be kinder to others.

Knicknack Well said! I hope I didn't come across as trying to be 'virtuous' I was just trying to explain why I didnt 'get it' to begin with and now I'm beginning to. Not to the point where I can get her up about it, but I can definitly see where people are coming from.

Jelly I think it's as much a disability as my depression and anxiety at the very least. It a horrid thing for anyone to feel they have to go through just to feel comfortable in their own skin.

Apologies, read back my last post and my use of 'het up' made it sound like I think people are being silly to be upset. That is NOT what I meant! I meant more that for me personally I wouldn't join protests etc.

I'd love the luxury of not being able to get het up, Drama The thing is I grew up gay, went through all this fight to the point of being able to marry the woman I love, and now suddenly it's bad and wrong to be homosexual again.

But I also know from trans friends how hard a transition can be. May I ask, if you knew someone wanted to fully transition but couldn't (either money or couldn't at that time because they were waiting to get it done or whatever, sorry I'm not gonna pretend to fully know about these things.) would that make a difference?

A difference in what sense?

I’m bi, so I can’t speak for lesbians. I’m primarily attracted to women but I’m in a LTR with a man. I have zero attraction to most men, they do nothing for me whatsoever. When I had a relationship crisis a few years go and nearly left my male partner, I only wanted to date women because at that point I was only attracted to women. I was told I was wrong for making the distinction between women and trans women when it came to choosing a potential partner. I was kicked out of the local LGBT and feminist community, my employer contacted and I have little to no interaction with the LGBT community in my city anymore. Funnily enough the people who treated me so badly are slowly becoming more and more GC and one by one are apologising to me.

As a bi person I am a.) “lucky” because I can present as straight and b.) do not fully understand how it feels to be monosexual. Bisexual can be attracted to both sexes and genitals and monosexual people cannot. It isn’t a preference in the same way that I prefer women to men, it is their innate sexuality.

Telling people to change their sexuality in any way, is abhorrent, is (largely) homophobic and I feel there should be more and more backing to have this type of shit reported to the police as the true hate crime it is.

Asking people who are only attracted to one sex to become bisexual to appease the feelings of another is repulsive.

Sexuality, gender and sex are three distinct things. Sexuality is irrelevant unless either party is thinking about having a mutually pleasurable sexual experience with the other. Personally I consider it to be an invasion of privacy to ask someone their sexual preferences.

Just thanking people for replies to me, I won't reply to them as more want to 'digest' than rather than making quick replies.
I'll reiterate that I believe nobody should be made to feel bad about only wanting relationships with people of one sex.

Signing in as a slightly older (37!) lesbian who has also been branded an evil Terf for not wanting to date someone with a penis (because, you know, LESBIAN). Then I became aware of Stonewall's definition according to which I am now apparently trans despite always having been comfortable with my body. That alienated me further, and it now feels utterly surreal that I was more comfortable coming out in 1995 than now in 2018.

I'm also an academic philosopher, and it's all kicked off in our discipline of late. See:

dailynous.com/2018/08/27/derogatory-language-philosophy-journal-hostility-discussion/

It's ironic that the author of said paper who claims TERF is not a slur populates their twitter feed with phrases like "f*k Terfs" and "Terfs are gender Nazi's."

Hotrocker - thank you for your insightful and moving post

Jeeps everlasting. I just read well skimmed that paper
Just tell them I dunno to get real lifes.

Seems like they stuck in some sort of unreal life’s

Infact a quick fuck off would probs sort them out

And block em on twitter

Life to short to have to engag3 with total twats

I'm sorry but I'm really confused right now...so a person born with a willy but wants to be female and not then heterosexual (IE, have a sexual relationship with a man) is a lesbian? So that person was actually heterosexual all along? Sorry if I'm being (genuinely) dim.

More or less.

A person born with a willy (ie a man) wants to be a woman, retain their willy, and have sex with women. This person therefore calls themselves a lesbian.

This person is particularly interested in having sex with females who are attracted to other females (ie lesbians), because doing so would validate their self-image as a 'lesbian woman'. It even has a terminology: breaking through the cotton ceiling.

Lesbians who object to this are vilified by LGB+.

Brain fried yet?

I’m somewhat gobsmacked at what is happening in Philosophy, Everlasting. I just cannot comprehend how someone like McKinnon could have been employed by a university. They seem really very dim, unwilling to debate or engage with others in the field, and grossly unprofessional. How on earth did they get a job, at a time when the job market is so fiercely competitive?

My brain is battered. No wonder (female born) lesbians are pissed off.
I'm no even sure why I put (female born) because surely if a person was born with a will (IE a man) then he can't possibly be a lesbian.
Christ on a bike
I'm supposed to be taking my kids to pride tomorrow too. All their aunties are lesbians. They'd be horrified at the thought of having a sexual relationship with a willy-born person.

In fact, isn't that some sort of misrepresentation? I mean, I'm a heterosexual female, who is not remotely sexually attracted to women (I love women, but not in a gay way!) And I think I'd be a bit freaked out if I found myself in a sexy situation with someone who wasn't really a man but had come across as one, and didn't tell me they weren't.
Oh god what a mess!

There's that scene in trainspotting where begbie gets off with a 'bird' then finds out she's a he, then goes batshit....

I can't go (family wedding) but as a woman and as a bisexual I would feel tempted to do something. Nice to know there are like-minded women in my area though!

The weird thing for me now I think about it is I have friend who used to be, let's say, Andrew, but now, after years of successful surgery, is Annie. This person no longer has a penis. I have only ever known this person as Annie, who volunteered their stirt, I never asked. Is Annie a man or a woman?
They have had a horrible time getting to the (good) place they are today.

Annie professes to being sexually attracted to men. But we have spoken about whether this means her natural sexuality is homosexual, or straight. She says she's straight.

Because she's a woman.

I'm fond of this friend, but really can't get my head around it all.

TigerDrankAllTheWaterInTheTap, hotrocker and everlasting, thank you.
OP, just go and if something comes up, either challenge it there or discuss it when you get home. Reading Pride is fairly small scale, it's more about dance music and a slush puppy than the bigger, more historical Prides. I'd hire the disused Reading Gaol for an after-party, personally. It's what Oscar would have wanted.

Dhal best of luck to your friend. The difference between someone like that and the aggressive trans rights activists who try to shut this board down is that I doubt your friend feels entitled to sex with any man, and I doubt she'd scream at them for being bigoted if they ruled her out based on her trans status. Like most people I'm guessing she'd be disappointed, upset and maybe a little embarrassed, as we all are when we get knocked back by someone we fancy.
These activists are telling young lesbian girls they are bigoted if they rule out trans women, and that trans women now include straight men who cross-dress. It's a complete mess.

jasminemaya I'm going to Reading Pride tomorrow. It'll be my first Pride as a trans lesbian. Thank you for standing up for me and the other trans people who just want to be themselves and enjoy Pride.

404NameNotFound

Not to be goady, I am genuinely interested. I’m sure you can appreciate language is rapidly changing when it comes to these kinds of topics. What do you mean by “trans lesbian”? Have you transitioned to another sexuality or are you a trans person who indentifies a lesbian?

Was Pride not originally an LGB event?

I cant think of a better place to be saying that lesbians are same sex attracted.

Males can not be lesbians, and lesbians arent attracted to males.

That is my understanding as a straight woman, am I wrong?