The British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy have come up with. Definition of "woman"....

[BertrandRussell]

...and I have very rarely been so angry.

So are we using genitals as a unit of measurement now?

When I'm measuring up for the new bedroom carpet, I can say that seems a little long, clitorically speaking? Those curtains are too short, penally.

I’d like to be referred to in non-binary gender terms, for example ... referring to a group I’m in as ‘folks’ or ‘guys’ rather than ‘girls’ or ‘ladies’ ...."

Does MJ give a toss about how other members of any group they're in like to be referred to? Many women detest being referred to as either 'folks' and 'guys'. Personally, having worked for a long time in a US company I'm ok with 'guys' for a mixed group but I know I'm the exception rather than the rule on that. 'Hello everyone' is probably the most inclusive greeting which is liable not to annoy anyone.

I don't know why you're all scoffing.
The clitowangleruler has been in every midwife's kit since 1873. Here is an example of an early model.
Advanced technology has developed the concept - now with wings! -so that it now effectively obscures labia, vagina and/or testicles as these prominent yet irrelevant appendages were discovered to be inappropriately informing the assignment of sex by the midwives, some of whom were aggressively Northern in their approach to sex assignment.

As a result

Barracker

Does MJ give a toss about how other members of any group they're in like to be referred to?

I strongly doubt it.

It is appalling. The definitions of woman and man are just silly. I'm definitely a man according to that so should be adjusting my pronouns accordingly. Confidence and ambition being unfitting for a woman who should just pet kittens, cry and do her make up.
As a GP the chromosome stuff is pseudoscience. Yes there are sex chromosomal anomolies like XXY but they are very rare. Yes most of us don't know our chromosome make up but I can be 99.99% sure mine are XX and that isn't a reason to say chromosomes aren't important.
I have delivered babies and spent 6 months as an obstetric junior doc. I have never seen anyone measure a baby's penis. That bit is complete fabricated madness. Even in the 90s when I worked in O&G babies were placed straight on the mother's chest and midwives encouraged the parents to discover the baby's sex if they didn't already know from antenatal ultrasound. Boys have testes and a penis, girls have a vulva. It seems bizarre that something so obvious needs stating but sexing babies is clearly confusing many people who think it is a complex process involving a ruler! The percentage of intersex people is tiny. There things can be more complex but that is a different discussion to one on gender dysphoria.
Most parents in 2018 find out their baby's sex antenatally. This isn't penis length measuring but can involve visualising the gonads (ovaries and testes) and measuring the angle of the pubic tubercle as well as looking at penis and clitoris. Antenatal US isn't 100% accurate but is high in the second trimester.
This paper is a disappointing load of twaddle that reflects badly on counsellors and psychotherapists who look as though they don't believe in science and have little understanding of it.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1034933079452905472.html

Excellent takedown from intersex rock star @mrkhtake2, as ever. The science denial on this subject is beyond laughable.

Slightly OT, but how much does a basic chromosome check cost? I'd have thought that doing it routinely on newborns (unless it had already been done antenatally, as happened for my DD as I had an amino) would be very beneficial for correct early diagnosis of the rare intersex and other chromosomal abnormality issues.

The fact that "trans" is placed before "cisgender" in the opening sentence says it all

I get my BRCA2 test results a week today (based on which of my mother’s 2 X chromosomes I inherited).

I’ve been seeing the same genetic counsellor since Feb and have a really good rapport with her - happy to ask questions re: chromosome tests (I will explain my interest, which really consolidated around the whole ‘cervix-havers’ debacle, so is somewhat on topic for a geneticist specialising in women’s cancers).

To lighten the mood for a sec: Helen Joyce nails it

twitter.com/HJJoyceEcon/status/1034898121078333441

*>sigh

conclusion by mrkhtake2 linked above by silentcrow

"In summary, this is a terrible "good practice" guide for therapists working with people with complex and traumatic medical histories. It misrepesnts our conditions, minimises them and gives a cursory nod to our lived experiences.
BACP needs to look at this and get advice from someone who knows what they are talking about. Maybe speak to intersex people. I'd also like to be reassured that @ megjohnbarker won't be allowed near intersex clients until she has received some thorough retraining.
I am now going to breathe heavily into a brown paper bag/scream into a pillow (whichever comes first) as this has made me beyond angry. Sorry for the rant."

She has also added additional concerns to it:twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1034933079452905472

In some northern working class contexts femininity is associated with strength and aggression

Is this about Cheryl Cole and that toilet incident?

On a serious note... What the fuck?

Off topic but I’m confused about non-binary. Where does non-binary end and trans start, or is non-binary trans? Also gender fluid, is that trans, or only trans sometimes? Where are the helpful definitions from BACP on this?

Is it me or is this plain abusive? How can you compare a clitoris to a penis? Or is this just another way the females will never compare to males, set up at birth? Is the vagina a design flaw? Should we sew it up at birth, because it appears to have no discernable use, given the only marker is the size of the clitoris/penis.

It's fucking bad enough that the clitoris wasn't even on some of thse anatomy pics that they are giving out in school/with literature about 'front holes' etc.

Oh my fuck, I am at new levels of angry now

If we get raped with a penis, it's because 'ours' wasn't up to scratch, or something.

Also, what is the obsession with 'middle class white women' at the moment? It always seems to be 'wealthy white men' but 'middle class white women' who are the worst of the worst at the moment.

Why aren't 'wealthy white women' or 'middle class white men' getting it in the neck as well?

I dunno about y’all, but I don’t pee out of my clitoris - it’s a big clue that I haven’t confused it with having a teeny-tiny penis!

HotRocker from the guide:

2.8 Gender identity: non-binary
Definitions
Non-binary is an umbrella term for people who do not experience
themselves as male or female (in the US the umbrella term genderqueer is more commonly used). As with ‘man’ and ‘woman’ this term is a big umbrella covering a wide range of different experiences, including people who:
• Do not have a gender (e.g. agender, gender neutral)
• Feel partially male or female (e.g. demi boy/girl)
• Are both masculine and feminine (e.g. bigender)
• Are located somewhere between male and female (e.g. androgynous)
• Have an additional – or third – gender,
• Move between genders (e.g. gender fluid)
• Reject the western binary gender system (e.g. genderfuck*)

• this term is the groups preferred identity descriptor Technically all non-binary people are trans because virtually all babies are assumed to be male or female at birth, however, not all non-binary people identify as trans. The extent of non-binary gender is difficult to estimate because many official censuses, surveys, and other documents do not offer a choice beyond male and female. When they do offer a further option, around 0.4% of people choose this (Barker, Vincent & Twist, 2017). However, this statistic is likely to change as cultural awareness of non-binary gender is increasing at a rapid rate, and greater numbers of young people see gender as a spectrum and locate themselves as somewhere between extremes of masculinity and femininity. In the general population, over a third of people say they are to some extent the ‘other’ gender, ‘both genders’ and/or ‘neither gender’ (Joel et al., 2014), therefore exploration of gender beyond a binary understanding may well be relevant to a far larger group of clients than those who identify as non-binary. Common concerns While a person’s non-binary identity or experience may well be irrelevant to their presenting issues, the world is so binary when it comes to gender that most non-binary people will experience some struggles navigating it, such as the cumulative impact of constant everyday misgendering and microaggressions (Sue, 2010; Nadal, 2013). Those who identify as non-binary and/or express themselves in ways that challenge binary gender face similarly high levels of mental health difficulties and suicide attempts as trans people more generally, linked to common experiences of transphobia (see 2.4) and non-binary invisibility (see 3.4). Three quarters of non-binary people avoid situations for fear of being misgendered, outed, or harassed, two thirds feel that they are never included in services, and very few feel able to be out in their workplace or educational context (see ‘Find out more’, bullet 2). As with other trans people, non-binary people may appreciate help navigating the options available to them, dealing with cultural marginalisation, and considering their relationships with others. An open, affirming, normalising therapeutic space can be invaluable for this."

Absolutely shocking. I'm -desperately hoping-- wondering if the 'gender identity' title, rather than actual definition of a woman, means it's about socially created gender and stereotypes.. going to check their response on Twitter.

WTAF am I reading?? This is deeply shocking

Ok this explains a lot
(note the retweet)

Also, she reteeted a tweet where the person ahd been organising trans groups not to support Maria McLachlan after the Speakers' Corner Assault
twitter.com/FearMyHat/status/1034926539236941827

(Scroll down)

Sisters Uncut were the organisation who were masked and physically blocked entry to the women's meeting, including Julie Bindel

twitter.com/CherryAnnAustin/status/988120462046703616

The video is here

twitter.com/bindelj/status/987901883418316801

Shit it looks like I am a man.