Goat dies after violent attack by men **Title edited by MNHQ - distressing article in OP post**

[IDontEatFriedTurtle]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pregnant-goat-dies-after-being-12998644

Fucking horrific. And thank you to the Metro for publishing this act of sexual assault and animal cruelty under the "weird sex" section.

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with men. How do 8 men find each other that would willing rape a pregnant goat to death? If there aren't loads of disgusting men out there how do gang rapes happen? coincidence that ab inch of disgusting bastards were together?

Oh, and please (excuse me for some unladylike shouting and swearing) CAN WE STOP FEEDING THE FUCKING TROLL? Maybe he'll get bored and go away if we stop reacting, or possibly get so annoyed by being ignored that he loses his shit completely and does something ban-able.

it is a work in progress.

Well I’d suggest progress isn’t fast enough.

Look, when women say stuff like this and men start the NAMALT shit it gets our backs up. Why? Because we know it’s not all men, or we’d all be on an island and be repelling invaders with flamethrowers .

The problem is that it’s quite a lot of men. And that even the decent men benefit from the situation and don’t do anything to change it.

I know racial analogies are a bit shit but it’s like my black friends talking to me about racism and me insisting that because I’m not racist and we have Laws Against That Kind Of Thing then racism isn’t an issue. Thing is, it IS an issue. And one that I, as someone who is white probably don’t even really see a lot of the time. Now that doesn’t make me a terrible person. It doesn’t make me culpable.

But I also have to face the very uncomfortable truth that I, as a white person in a society in the western world benefit from that social setup. now that’s not a nice thought to have is it? But it doesn’t make it less true.

Should I be personally culpable for centuries of slavery and abuse and society being set up along colonial lines? No. Should I be aware of it and listen when people tell me their lived experiences and opinions, call it out when I see it and be open to the knowledge that the deck is still pretty stacked towards white people? Yes.

Why can’t men do that? Why can’t they say ‘yeah. It is an issue. Tell me about it. What can I do as a decent man?’

*Fermats" - like I said, MAKE IT STOP!

UptonSnodbury, the question feminists rightly ask and men should also be asking is: just how did eight rapists find each other to perform this act of gang rape, given that only 6% of men rape? We should ask this question every time there is a gang rape.

I have a hypothesis as to why: almost all men collude with rapists to defend and normalise rape.

• Men commonly joke about rape in a way that normalises and sanitises perpetration, e.g. this joke, superficially a "gay" joke, that is predicated on the rape of Kylie Minogue and the assumption that any man would rape Kylie if given the chance.
• Men close ranks to defend other men who abuse, often using financial or business considerations as an excuse, e.g. my dad firing a cleaner who complained of sexual harassment, instead of disciplining the perp.
• Men propagate rape myths about women "deserving it" for being drunk, wearing something revealing, or being pretty or full-busted. Like the Kylie joke above, these myths tell men that any man would rape if the victim was attractive enough or he could get away with it.
• Men who object are shunned and the ones who stay silent are noticed, but the rapists notice each other as the ones who laugh loudly, and so they find each other.

The above creates an environment in which rapists find each other easily. Should a man refuse to take part in a gang rape, he is shunned and mocked or even attacked as a risk because he might report, and so men coerce each other into rape.

When men are not actively challenging this culture of rape normalisation, they are part of the problem because the rapists carry on thinking that what they are doing is normal and they carry on raping unimpeded by social censure.

and the ones who stay silent are noticed, but

That should say "unnoticed" near the end

bd that’s a very insightful post.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find 8 women in the world that would penetrate a pregnant goat to death and take pleasure in its pain and distress and yet there were 8 men in a village that were well up for it. They find each other.

My dh has been semi-ostracised from a group of friends because he refused to go to a strip club and went home instead - they don’t ask him to go anywhere now. I’ve only just made the connection from your post.

This does not legally constitute rape. Life is cheap in many countries. The news item to which you refer took place in a culture distant from the UK in many ways. They were abhorrent acts but many of you are correlating these acts with the UK which I don't think gives your arguments credence. My son's age group, 20s do not behave in the way some people have suggested and are very aware of their duty to ensure equality . However there are always men and women whose behaviour does not conform to what a normal educated society would reasonably expect and they are brought to trial under the justice system and if found guilty punished appropriately. ALL men are not how you described, and to suggest all men are culpable for the behaviour of all other men is disingenuous a bit like suggesting all women are guilty of infanticide because one or two develop pnd, paranoia, or whatever else has caused the act.

MRA bingo anyone?

Bingo's only any fun when you don't fill your card completely on the basis of one single post, Clarice.

The statistics for rape in the UK, are 1 in 5 woman are raped, on research done on university campus it was 1 in 3. I am guessing those people will be in their twenties. As any woman is aware rape is a UK problem too.

This news report was next to - German parents selling their little boy to male pedophiles, a British policeman raping a little baby and sharing the video with pedophiles and the charging of murder of a midwife to her brother in law. Yes, there are different cultures all across the world but wherever you go there are venal and callous rapists, abusers and murderers who are nearly all to a man, men and all show a complete lack of humanity towards children, women and animals. If you can’t see it, it’s because you refuse to look.

Look around you. What did women as a class create ?

*also I blatantly stole that from Twitter (but I just love it)

bd67th

Well said. Think of the total mind fuck we put on girls when men tell them off for wearing clothes that 'ask for it', walk outside on their own etc but then god forbid you say "men are violent" then you can move for the NAMALTS thrown at you.

Massive shame folk seem happier to criticise the thread title, whether it's a suitable thing to talk about, or to prioritise their NAMALT chat; than to show disgust at 8 men who decided to fuck a goat to death.

Good grief.

I love the we built society argument. Proudly put forward by Gavin from accounts who has achieved the square root of chuff all as though he’s Alexander the Great besieging the Sogdian Rock.

You built society? Well you’ve had a few millennia and men are still doing 98% of the Really Bad Shit. You get an F- from me.

Meanwhile the women have been literally Creating All The People and packing lunches for Alexander’s forces. Perhaps it’s time to let us have a crack at it eh? The bar is fairly low, we just have to not do 98% of the violent crime right? I reckon that’s doable, despite us being all unstable and emotional and all.

Life is cheap in many countries.

I had a male colleague who had worked in a number of developing countries. One day a (adult male ignorant of his own racism and lacking both empathy and insight), made just this comment in a class my colleague and I were teaching.

My colleague looked him in the eye and said, "People in other countries do not value their families and friends any less than we do."

The centuries of colonialism implicit in that statement wavered in the face of a simple truth.

And in fact, the life, even of livestock, in poor villages is not cheap. If you are poor, a healthy goat might be the thing that stands between you and your family going hungry.

Goats give milk, if the kid was female the family gained an additional resource to be used or sold. A male kid might be a source of scarce protein.

The importance of livestock to poor people is why they send vets into disaster zones - because livestock, especially hardy grazers like goats, are vital to people's survival.

Beyond the individual suffering of this one animal, an act of violence has removed a vital resource from a community. The family who own the goat may not have access to the funds to buy another goat.

For those who live in poverty, the burden falls most heavily in women and girls. It's poverty which sees girls sold to sex traffickers and forces women into prostitution.

The life of a goat, which is dismissed as "cheap", may in fact, impose a huge cost on that community.

sigh at men who think they don't benefit from male violence against women and girls.

Most violence is perpetrated by men and women are disadvantaged physically when dealing with it. Women make up most sexual violence victims and uniquely face the risk of pregnancy as a consequence of rape. Sexual harassment is the set of daily reminders to women that we are sexual prey and the most common victims of rape. As a consequence, women have a structural fear of men as a class and fear male violence more than men fear it, despite men often being victims of other men.

Male violence, perpetrated by a minority, benefits all men by deterring women from doing things, meaning more chances for men to do those things:

• A young woman decides not to apply for a late-night job at a petrol station because she doesn't feel safe alone in the petrol station at night and doesn't feel safe walking home in the early hours. What she fears is male violence, sexual and physical. The men who want that job benefit because they do not compete against her when applying.
• Women drop out of tech because of endemic sexual harassment. This benefits men by keeping salaries high and keeping women out of the talent pool, reducing competition for men. This is not a bug but a feature: women have been pushed out of tech for a very long time and the brogrammer culture of sexual harassment and even rape is part of that.
• A man places his bag beside him on a crowded train. A woman, fearing a hostile response if she asks to sit down, says nothing and remains standing. He benefits from the violence perpetrated by other men because she fears him automatically, and so he doesn't have to put his bag on his knee like polite people do.
• A female electrician who works for a hospital is thinking of becoming a sole trader. She realises that this would involve entering people's houses alone and decides to stay at the hospital. She recognises that some men would hire "Jane Smith, Electrician (Part P registered)" because she's female and they are hoping for some kind of reversal of the "washing machine repair man and housewife" porn trope, and she doesn't want that awkwardness and knows that some men react badly to refusal. She is fearing harassment and rape, and men benefit because she does not compete with them for trade in a lucrative market.
• Women are massively underrepresented in the armed forces and sexual harassment of servicewomen is rife. When women leave, or don't even join, it clears the path for men's enlistment and promotion and so men benefit, even though the army as an organisation is harmed.

Basically, any time that a woman decides not to do something, or to stop doing something, because of fear of male violence, men as a class benefit because opportunity is increased for men. I think it was TheBewilderness who said that men give each other constant and enormous positive discrimination by not sexually harassing each other.

On another note, slamming women for not inventing stuff historically deliberately ignores how we were barred from education and many fields of endeavour, even into my Mum's lifetime: she excelled at technical drawing at school but was told that women could only ever be copyists, not draughts(wo)men. A few years later and the Sex Discrimination Act would have protected her ambitions. Oxford University had a 75% male admissions quota until well into the 70s. Pretending that women didn't do engineering and science because we suck at it is a flat lie: the only way men can stop us from achieving is by forcing us out of the field.

Proudly put forward by Gavin from accounts who has achieved the square root of chuff all as though he’s Alexander the Great besieging the Sogdian Rock.

poor ol Gavin

even into my Mum's lifetime: she excelled at technical drawing at school but was told that women could only ever be copyists, not draughts(wo)men

Dh is a draughstman and even now it's still a very male dominated job. I had a friend who had trained to do it and could never get past the interview stage and ended up working in a call centre instead. She'd be about 32 now? So this is all ancient history of course [rolls eyes back a few centuries]

MRA blather on the men gangraping a goat thread. They really have neither shame nor sense.

Not just the 75% admissions policy in the 70s, bd - there's a thread on here at the moment about Japanese medical schools fixing the results of their entrance exams to limit the number of women.

bd67th

'slamming women for not inventing stuff historically deliberately ignores how we were barred from education and many fields of endeavour,'
You must have a different history to me then because you, yourself are ignoring the many achievements of women, Joan of Arc, Xi Ling Shi, Marie Curie, Amelia Erhardt, Florence Nightingale, Golda Meir, Annie Lister, Benazir Bhutto, Boudicca, Elizabeth I, Indira Ghandi, Grace Hopper, Rosa Parks, Helen Keller, Lorrainne Hansberry, Estee Lauder, Angela Morley, Edith Garrud, Eleanor Roosevelt, Emily Roebling, Harriet Beecher Stowe, there are thousands.

Are you getting the picture? You think you can rewrite women out of history by pedalling your version of the truth, but the reality is there are women the length and breadth of the world, who have achieved and are achieving amazing and great things, and by putting your version out here, you are denigrating these very women you claim you are supporting. Please don't speak for me and mine. I am respected by the men in my life. And you will not improve the lot of women by pedalling hate. This woman, and the women I know don't recognise the portrait of cowering women you are depicting. We are lawyers, fire fighters, artists, dentists, judges, scientists, doctors, surgeons, inventors, businesswomen, landlords, computer software designers, bus drivers, soldiers, nurses, engineers, vets and so on and so on . . .

LassWiDelicateAir

And I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

I was talking about the fact that whenever somebody mentions that men are at much higher risk of assault, somebody always says "but it's other men doing the attacking". My point is that it likely isn't much of a consolation to the guy that got assaulted or to the vast majority of non-violent males who comprise the majority of victims of the violent minority's violent acts.

And on another note (not aimed at you now, LassWi) I don't hold my non-violent partner responsible for the crimes of violent men any more than I hold the average black teenager responsible for gang stabbings or the average Muslim responsible for terrorist acts. To do so would be ridiculous and illogical.

But it is undoubtedly a big problem. My view on it is similar to RAINN's view on rape culture: that shifting the blame onto the majority takes the focus away from the true deviant perpetrators who are of course truly reprehensible individuals.

But I don't expect many to agree with my viewpoint as blaming all men is much more conducive to having a good old whinge about men in general.

I don’t believe this story happened.

My first thought when I read this comment was "city person".

Growing up in the country you learn early on that some men and boys rape animals and the rest of the boys joke about it. The men and boys who are angered or outraged and moved to action by the rape of a person or animal not their own are the very small segment of the male population who are decent human beings.